250 Leading the Organization of the Future with the Father of Modern Day HR, Dave Ulrich | Partnering Leadership Global Thought Leader

***DISCLAIMER: Please note that the following AI-generated transcript may not be 100% accurate and could contain misspellings or errors.***

[00:00:00] Mahan Tavakoli: Dave Alrich. Welcome to Partnering Leadership. I'm thrilled to have you in this conversation with me.

[00:00:05] Dave Ulrich: Mohan. What a thrill. I've seen some of the podcasts you've done with some incredibly gifted people and I always come away from listening to those with really good insights and energy, so I'm honored to join you and the other colleagues.

[00:00:20] Mahan Tavakoli: Dave, it's an absolute honor. Not only are you known as the father of Modern day hr, so I have followed your work for over 30 years now.

Name number one, management group by Business Week. But you have really played a pivotal role in my own development, so it's an absolute thrill for me to get a chance to share. Some of your insights with the partnering leadership community. But before we get to your content, Dave would love to know whereabouts you grew up and how your upbringing impacted the kind of person you've become.

[00:00:58] Dave Ulrich: It's interesting, I was asked to do a commencement talk at a university, and most commencement speakers have a rags to richest story the Oprah Win story, the Stephen Jobs story. I have no story. I had normal parents. They were wonderful. I had a sister sibling.

I think one of the themes in my family was service and I'll give a quick example. My dad worked for the government. He built campgrounds very dedicated to the outside, and then he ran a civil service group called Job Corps in the sixties and seventies where people learned how to develop skills.

He retired at 55 and for the next 25 years, every day, five days a week, he would do what he called his bread. He'd go to the local grocery stores where he lived and pick up Dale Old fruit and vegetables and take 'em to the shelters, take 'em all over the city. And so every time we visited my dad, he'd say, Dave, let's go get in my truck and do the bread run.

In fact, I have a picture in my office if he happened to see it of my dad in his truck going to a grocery store. My mother matched his commitment to service. I remember so many times, waking up who's the stranger in our. So I have come from two incredibly gifted. My father's passed away, my mother's still alive.

Just dedicated to service, and that's I think, part of my passion.

[00:02:18] Mahan Tavakoli: You have shown that passion in all of your work. Dave, one of the things that impresses me is that you haven't stopped with your work. You are continuing to write in addition to your 30 books, just this past December, you. Published an outstanding research paper that was published in collaboration with a conference board.

So you continue reinventing yourself. Where do you get that from, and why do you do that?

[00:02:48] Dave Ulrich: Mohan, I'd love to ask you the question as well. If somebody were to say, what are the core values that kind of drive you that keep you energized? We've all done those exercises for me. There's two. One is a commitment to learning. I just love to learn. I'm curious. I love to learn. And the other is learning that creates value for someone else.

So those are principles. That leads me to research. I ended up doing a PhD. The only PhD in my family's history on either side. And I ended up doing a PhD mostly in statistics and trying to study and learn why things do the way they do. I've continued that. So I'd love to know if you had to pick one or two of your core values that your 13 and 16 year olds would recognize, what would they say My dad's core values are?

What would they.

[00:03:37] Mahan Tavakoli: They align with some of what you mentioned. A growth mindset is really important to me. I am not there yet. Need to know, need to learn, and that joy of learning. And making a positive difference in people's lives. So part of leadership is about helping elevate other people and develop a belief in themselves that they might not have had before.

So that really energizes me.

[00:04:05] Dave Ulrich: Great values, the growth mindset work that Carol Dweck does and others and then that positive affirming leadership. That leadership is not about what you know and do. Leadership is about how what you know and do makes somebody else know and do their work better. , I love those values.

And I'm sure your 13 and 16 year olds will recognize those in the next five years maybe at 13 and 16. They don't always see 'em or appreciate 'em. But they will. And I congratulate you. I think partnering leadership is a great theme is how do you build that partnership as a leader so that other people leave the experience feeling better about themselves.

I'll come back to that again and.

[00:04:43] Mahan Tavakoli: That's part of the challenge I hear from leaders, Dave, in that over the years, many of the leaders that I work with and hear from, Understand the need to be more attuned to the needs of their people, but they have a challenge with some of the accountability, some of the other parts of leadership that you also talk about in your book, the Leadership Code.

They've heard about the strategist. They understand some of that. They are concerned about their people development, but they are having difficulty withholding people accountable. What you call being an executor and the importance of that.

[00:05:26] Dave Ulrich: First of all, thank you for recognizing and actually knowing something about our books. I learned a great lesson in the people you talk to. You have to say, people say, I love the book you wrote. And I used to say what did you like? And then I realized, never asked that question because they love the title and they love the cover, but they may not have read it.

You've actually read some, under that theme that leadership is not about what you know and do, but how you help. No one do better. Two quick stories. I'm coaching a woman and I don't coach all the time, but she's just brilliant and she has one of those rags to richest stories. She grew up in the Philippines in a hut, born in a hut, went to school, couldn't read or write at age six.

 Graduated from that. Primary school came to the United States, valedictorian of a large school, Harvard, PhD, MIT master's degree, six languages. One of those unbelievably iconic people. She became the president of a university with about 40,000 students as a relatively young age. I won't share her age.

I would be inappropriate, but a brilliant leader. And everybody said, Dr. Too Menez. Tell your story. Tell your story. And when she asked me to coach her, I said, quit telling your. Why? It's a great story because your job as a leader is to help 40,000 students create their story, and it's not yours, it's theirs.

And when you get that in your mind that my job as a leader is not to tell my story, it's teaching. Often I hear teachers and I even hear people who've been on your podcast, let me tell you what I know. That's not good teaching. The teaching is that you discover what you need to know. To do your job better.

Now that's the first story and that's for me what real leadership is not about what I know. It's about how what I know helps you. Then you raise such a great question about accountability. Second case, I'm coaching another leader. He's a very senior leader in a global company. One of the top officers company everybody would recognize by name, I won't name it, and an employee of his makes a huge mistake.

Cost the company an enormous amount of money. I had a deal with him and this company did global work and they often communicated through email, which is not ideal, but they did. And he wrote an email, you made an egregious mistake that's gonna cost us millions of dollars. If you don't fix it and do better, you will be fired. And I quickly said, don't hit send and he was about to three additions. Number one, I care about you. Number two, you have great potential in this company. You made a huge mistake. It's gonna cost us a lot of money. Do not hide as a leader from accountability. I love when you said one of your values is positive differentiation.

You know it's positive with accountability. Number one, I care about you. You have great potential. You made a mistake. It costs us money. Then number three, what did you learn so that you can make improvements going forward. He sent me a note back a day or two later and said, Dave, I can't believe the response I got.

The employee said, thank you. So instead of being punished by the feedback, the employee was engaged, and I don't know how you said it exactly, but you said, I have two things. A growth mindset of positive differentiation. That's where leadership can be positive with accountability. There is accountability because if you don't have accountability that's not gonna be good leadership.

So two quick stories. Leadership is about helping others build their brand through positive accountability because we care.

[00:09:09] Mahan Tavakoli: I love both of those examples, Dave, that accountability is an important part of also helping people develop so they appreciate it. Not holding people accountable is not doing them any good, but doing it in a positive way, as in your example. What I wonder about, the first point you mentioned though, is whether in the world of social media, of us taking selfies, CEOs.

Talking about themselves in many instances, and people celebrating outlier entrepreneurs and their stories, whether we are giving leaders the wrong impression of what leadership is all about, which is telling your story and focusing on yourself.

[00:09:56] Dave Ulrich: That's such a great comment because I think sometimes we appreciate the extroverts who are narcissists because they're out there and they're promoting and they're selling, but I don't think that's real successful leadership to me. We often make a difference in some of our writing between a leader and leadership.

A leader is that first person. He or she does the work. They're out. They're forefront. They're the covers of the magazines, they're all the things. Leadership is when you leave, the next generation is better. I think we see that in parenting. We had a quiet brief introduction at the beginning. I had great parents and it sounds like you did also my mother and father, as you allowed me to share part of their agenda was helping my sister and I become better.

And it sounds like your mother has done that with you and your other siblings. We do that with our children. and we do that not by taking away their accountability. They have agency but we love them. And when they do something stupid, we laugh and we say, wow, I'm so glad you didn't know me when I was 13 or 16, cuz I also did stupid stuff.

So what are you learning? That's the growth mindset. Carol Dweck. It's not, what did you do wrong? It's what did you learn? How are you gonna apply it? Sometimes leadership is not all that complicated. I get worried that those narcissist leaders Someday they're gonna turn around and there's not very many people following them.

 Leaders who don't build the next generation of leadership someday will probably turn around and go, oh my gosh, it's lonely here.

Good leaders aren't lonely. They build leadership that makes them successful.

[00:11:31] Mahan Tavakoli: That's a great gauge of whether you are an outstanding leader or not. I'm not sure if. Familiar with David Marque. He wrote a book, turned Your Ship Around, was a captain of nuclear submarine in the US Navy, and part of what he takes pride in is out of the ship. He captained more navy captains came out than any other ship.

 The legacy of the leader is the leadership that comes from the people that have been developed. And I know that's consistent part of what you talk about. Dave, you have also spent a lot of your time focused on human resources and the need for human resources to be strategic and a partner.

One of the challenges I see in many organizations, is that we still, , haven't gotten there where the human resources the C H R O is at the table my question to you is, Why are we struggling and what do we need to do to make HR truly a partner in the strategy of the organization rather than just a functional, isolated part of the organization?

[00:12:51] Dave Ulrich: I'm gonna answer that in a roundabout way. A couple of weeks ago, actually, maybe a month ago, I was on a flight and a professor from the place where I teach at the University of Michigan was on the flight with me and we got off and he introduced me to his wife and he said, oh, here's Dave Alrich. He works in human resources.

And I could just hear in his voice this stereotype of the office or Dilbert cartoons. They're sitting in their office pulling levers and I thought, thank you I appreciate the introduction. It so happened that he's an expert in leadership and he's very good.

My first reaction is when I think about human resources, I don't think about the function. Here's what I think about. Human resources in our evolution of the ideas, not just a personnel function. It's not just an HR practice. Hiring, training, remote work, not just human capability. It's literally three things.

The ability to add value to stakeholders, customers, investors, through three things. Talent, competence, people, anything related to the individual. The second thing human resources is about, is organization. The teamwork, the culture, the system. And the third thing it's about is leadership.

If you hold up behind your fingers, that's your talent. So you sit in a meeting, do we have the right talent? Do we have the right organization and do we have the right leadership? By the way, I've learned that the fingers over the fist in China is either a symbol of respect or a symbol of I want to have a fight with you.

So I don't know which way it goes, but this is. So when I think of human resources, I call that human capability. It's talent organization leadership that creates value for stakeholders. Now, here's my comment. Those issues are gonna be at the CEO table. Investors are paying attention to 'em. 80% of a firm's value is intangibles.

Our shows that about 25 to 30% of that is human capability talent organization leadership. Boards of directors are paying attention to it. They do succession of leadership, but they also manage a company's culture. They manage the employee engagement. Senior business teams, we wanna create a new strategy.

We wanna differentiate. You do that work brilliantly, and I looked at your website with some great stories and cases. It isn't just the color of the ocean, it's a purple ocean, a blue ocean, whatever the strategy is. Do we have the human capability, talent, organization, leadership? So for me, the human capability, issues of talent, organization, leadership, they're at the table.

They're central today more than we've ever seen 'em post pandemic and post uncertainty. What does that then mean? When a human resource person walks in the room, they ask the questions to deliver talent, organization and leadership that will create value for a customer. So back to your human resource executive, I think that executive made a mistake.

It's not a debate of remote work versus in-person work. That's a silly debate. Hybrid work, whatever. It's not new. I'm betting Mahan. You've done hybrid work much of your career. I worked at home. I mean my first book I wrote on an airplane. I write most of my books on airplane. We've done hybrid work.

Here's the question that HR person should have asked. What do we as a company have to do to succeed in the marketplace? How will we better get customers to buy our products and services? How will we get investors to invest in us given those agendas in the marketplace? What do we need to do with our people?

Is it gonna help to get better people culture? If we have remote work, is it gonna help if they come together? And how do we navigate that discussion so that we succeed in the marketplace? Absent marketplace success, there is no workplace. And so I keep coming back to that. That's the north star. That's the direction.

How do we build an agenda inside so that our customers, investors, and communities outside are benefited? And I hope HR people walk into the rooms with those questions.

[00:17:02] Mahan Tavakoli: I love that, Dave, especially the bridge that you build to the outside with the, so that the, so that is not an inter. So that it's an external. So that, and to me that is really important. And when that happens, then HR is the strategic partner in the organization.

[00:17:28] Dave Ulrich: And I don't care if it's the HR person who raises it. Could be the c e o who raises it. Could be a technology person by the way. Ideally it may even be a consultant . And we make our living sometimes doing that. But those questions of talent, organization leadership, when we navigate those agenda.

Good things will happen in the marketplace, good things will happen. And that's the virtuous cycle that I think, and so do my dear colleague who studies leadership, I'd look at him and say, thank you for your great studies of leadership. It's one of the elements of human resources. It's not the only element, but it's one of the elements of human resources, and we're so grateful for what you're.

[00:18:12] Mahan Tavakoli: So in order for organizations, whether the c e o or the c. Os to be able to do that. Dave, when you're working with organizations, what are the measures that you ask them to focus in on in order to be aligned with the right so that.

[00:18:32] Dave Ulrich: I love to start with customers or investors. So who are our customers? Why are they picking us versus a competitor? A lot of people call me and they must call you as well cuz you're so visible. I wanna go start a business, what should I do? And I say, why? And they say, I got a great idea. And my first question is, who's the customer?

Why will they take your idea instead of someone else? Or somebody says, Dave, I see that you do talks. It looks so easy to do Mahan. I see that you're a consultant, you've worked with Dale Carnegie, you've worked with all these. I wanna go do that. By the way, I've learned the simple question is why would a customer pay you to join them?

And then they go because I'm cute. No, that's not, by the way, that doesn't work for me. That may work for you. That doesn't work for me

[00:19:20] Mahan Tavakoli:  It works for my bald head. Yes,

[00:19:22] Dave Ulrich: good. That's good. I shine on because I've had a great experience. No, your experience isn't theirs. That's where I tend to. Who is it you're trying to serve?

What is it you're going to give them that will allow them to be successful in their space? And that could be an investor as well. It could be a customer or a community where we're trying to build social policy that builds communities. Once I get that clear, then I say, how do we build that inside the company?

A quick example. You've done so many clips on leadership. By the way, I love research. That's my passion to learn. For three rounds, we did a big study called Top Companies for Leadership with Fortune and Aon Hewitt. Almost every company in the world has a competence model.

In fact, at the university where I teach at Michigan, once, we said, spend in your confidence models, and we posted 'em on the wall with no. We were more able to predict the consulting firm who created it than the firm for whom it was created. Cause some of 'em have, they're in a circle. The best companies for leadership begin their competencies with customers.

What is it we're promising our customers innovation cost, technological. Do our leadership competencies reflect the external customer. So we did a book called Leadership Brand. The brand is not what the leadership knows. The brand is what the customer expects, translated into leadership behaviors. And when we get that bridge, that's the outside in bridge.

Suddenly the leadership is not just, when I look at my leader, I should be able to envision my customer. This is the way she behaves or he behaves as a leader, that's gonna give my customers a better experience. So that's the logic we've tried to follow.

By the way, most companies don't do that. They build their competence models based on who were successful leaders, unsuccessful leaders in our company. No, it's the marketplace that we're trying to influence.

[00:21:24] Mahan Tavakoli: I want to underline what you just mentioned, Dave, which is brilliant and lacking in all of my years, traveling 80 plus countries for Carnegie and working with lots of. Top level clients very rarely do I see the conversation be outside in most especially when it comes to leadership and the role of hr.

 A lot of conversations are very internal at most when there's a conversation around strategy. There are question. and it becomes outside in. So this is really a gem and really important, not well practiced by a lot of organizations.

[00:22:10] Dave Ulrich: and it's not hard. If it was hard, I wouldn't be able to do it. Even today I was reading, and I'm on LinkedIn quite often. I've written a lot of books and I've decided the goal of a book is not the book, it's the ability to engage with people. So I hope people follow me. Somebody said, who makes all those comments?

And I said, I do. That's why they have bad typing in 'em. But I was reading this company that's very well known, said, we're really upgrading employee engagement. We're doing some incredibly innovative things. And there was a podcast like this with a great transcript. Not once did they talk about customers, not once did they talk about investor confidence or community reputation, and I think you have just taught people what you're doing, which I don't disagree with.

But how is that connecting to the marketplace? How is that connected? I'll tell a funny quick story. Six months ago I had the chance to do a talk to the top a hundred leaders in a big successful technology company. I gotta ask you, do you ever get intimidated when you have to do stuff? Imposter syndrome,

[00:23:14] Mahan Tavakoli: All the time, Dave

[00:23:16] Dave Ulrich: So am I. I was sitting there by the way, before the talk I looked. , probably 80 PhDs in math and science and computer science. And I thought, holy crap. I majored in English and struggled to get my PhD. And so I thought, how do I get their attention around the research that we believe is so important?

So here's how I started. Could you yell out what these companies have in common. Digital equipment company, and they were a legacy technology company, obviously Compact, Enron, Eastman, Kodak toys R Us, Sears, and somebody yelled out, they all went broke. And I yelled back. I consulted for every one of them, and people stopped.

Like that's a gutsy thing to say.

[00:24:01] Mahan Tavakoli: should end the talk right here.

[00:24:03] Dave Ulrich: yeah. And I said, yeah, I took some of those companies from a hundred thousand employees to 10, and I'm here to help you. And then they said, why are we listening to you? And I said, because I've learned every one of those companies had great people practices.

They were the state of the art people, express Airlines, the state of the art. None of them connected them to the marketplace. Toys R Us, wonderful company. They missed Amazon. They missed e-commerce. They didn't have the people in place who could anticipate that next generation. And so 200,000 people lost their jobs.

That outside in-logic is so prevalent, and if we get it right, it's not complicated to say. So what's going on in the marketplace? What's happening out there that we need to see? and how do we get the people who are maybe a little bit off in terms of their vision and their views, but they see what the future might hold.

Let's get their input. You don't have to own 'em, you don't have to hire 'em, but you gotta access them. That for me, is just driving the work that we do. And I think that applies at a personal level. I assume you're in a relationship who defines the value of the gift you give your 16 year old?

[00:25:18] Mahan Tavakoli: Dave the same thing happens with my wife. I get her magnificent gifts, and she doesn't appreciate them as much because a lot of times I get what I would want to give her

[00:25:30] Dave Ulrich: boy, I get that and I've been married for over 45 years. My first few years I got my wife tickets to sporting events and her comment was, enjoy yourself. . Yeah. The value is defined by the receiver. I'm gonna give you, When our daughter turned 21, 1 of our daughters, we have two daughters.

I didn't know what to get her. Our kids are spoiled and they're lovely and kind. I decided to give her three days. Monica, sweetheart, you got three days. Whatever you wanna do with me and I'll go deeper on this story. She thought about it.

I'm gonna give you three days. Daddy daughter date has to be in the us. I didn't wanna go to Australia. That's more than three. She decided she wanted to go to New York and see four or five Broadway plays. I'm gonna get emotional. What a sweet experience. Here's an aha. . You and I both have the opportunity periodically to work with very senior leaders in Washington or around the world.

I don't do that all the time. Neither do you. We wish we did. But a company in Europe had a board of directors meeting where they were planning their leadership agenda for the next year, and it fell on a Friday that I promised my daughter. So they said, Dave, you need to come if you're gonna build the agenda for the next year.

I did a good and a bad thing. I said to them, I can't. I have a commitment because , I made a commitment to my daughter to give her three days. That was a good thing. They said, change it. What is it? I didn't have the courage then to say, I made an agreement with my 21 year old daughter that we're gonna go see a play.

 I don't live with tons of regret, but I wish I'd have had the courage to say, I'm not gonna come to your board meeting because I'm gonna go see whatever Lion King or whatever, play with my daughter cuz I made the commitment to her. I hope we can create organizations that can have those conversations.

By the way, I'm not UNC uncommitted. I worked like you do. I worked 70, 80 hours a week, but we had to be clear about the value we're creating for. Anyway, that's the value of a gift and my daughter, by the way to this day, remembers that I tried it again when she turned 30, and she took me to Los Angeles and wanted me to get on the television show.

You may or may not remember, called Let's Make a Deal where she wanted me to dress up as a fool and get on the TV show and win a televis. and by the way, that's so funny. That's so funny. So we go to la we try to get on the show and win a TV so that we've had success. She laughs about that. Dad, that was the greatest gift You made an absolute full of yourself.

Okay, by the way, values defined by the receiver. I hope you do those things and have obviously done those with your children and your.

[00:28:11] Mahan Tavakoli: Dave. Now my audience, who I'm sure most of them are familiar with, your work is falling in love with you as I have over the years. First and foremost, as we talk about. Leadership, whether in our personal lives or professional lives is truly behaving based on our values. Not stating it. We all say family is most important , but we end up a lot of times doing things differently.

But to your point, it's really important whether in our personal lives, value. is based on what the receiver sees. And then organizationally, when I see a big struggle at very senior levels. When I facilitate conversations, it's very hard to get people to start perceiving the.

Of whatever the conversation is around from the outside perspective, from the customer's perspective, and that is really important when you talk about employee experience or any other aspect, focusing on it from the value from the outside in perspective rather than insight perspective.

[00:29:29] Dave Ulrich: I should take what you just said and put it in the next LinkedIn post, cuz that's exactly the issue. You've defined it beautifully. Let me give an example and I'll use the name of this leader because he is passed away and I have such respect for him. Jacque Welch, and everybody's heard of Jacque Welch.

He gets negative press today, which is I think very unfair. He was an exceptional leader. He wanted to change the culture at GE, and he knew the participant of management, engaging people would help the company be more successful and help the people. So he brought me in and he said, one day, Dave, I demand that my people, my leaders practice participative management.

And I said, say that again, but say it slower and listen to yourself. I demand that they practice participative management. And he said, oh, I got it. That's hypocrisy. Think about your kids. I want you to clean your room. Clean your room. Then your daughter turns 13 and says, dad, your room's a mess now.

And to Welch, the comment is, Jack, you don't demand it. You model it. And when you model participative management, which he did brilliantly actually. you then help people see what they can become. The real source of helping others is not in giving them opportunities. It's in empowering them. And when you empower others, you help them develop in their ways.

The story I started with Dr. Too. Menez, your job as a leader is to help other people build their brand, not to share your brand. You've got a brand and their brand won't be your. And that's okay, by the way. I love that line. I demand that you practice participant of management. the way, these folks have more IQ than I ever will.

And once you slow down and hold up a mirror, they go, oh yeah that's not so good.

[00:31:09] Mahan Tavakoli: Good for Jack Welch in that instance to be open to your guidance. The best leaders I find. Surround themselves with truth tellers who are willing in the fun, humorous way, as you did point out to them because we all are very flawed human beings, and when we have people who care enough to push back on us, it can help us become just slightly better.

[00:31:38] Dave Ulrich: No question. And Welsh the visible things get in the way and he really did care about people, not just because they helped the company succeed, which is true as well. But there is a human side of most leaders, not all leaders. I've been with some leaders that are just , not human whatsoever.

 Could tell stories about them, and I won't name names, by the way, over time I think the market catches up with them. If a leader is out for ego and power, I think they're gonna lose the employees that make them better. They're not gonna build the next generation and that happens.

But I hope most leaders will say, my job here is to lead so that you get better. Again, you mentioned this before, I've done a lot of research. I love data, I do statistics. We've just done over the last five years, four major research projects.

One with 120,000 people, one with a thousand companies, one with 7,000 companies. I love simple tests and I've tried to, so that question, this is my favorite simple question. How often do people leave an interaction with you as a leader? Feeling better or worse about themselves. is such a simple test.

And by the way, we can ask it. You and I have not interacted a lot. I've read your material. Every time I see a picture of you now, man, my mind's eye am gonna see you just grinning and glowing with vibrancy and energy, and that makes me feel better about myself. That's the test of a leader, and that doesn't mean you're all Pollyanna and positive.

Like I said before, you made a. But I'm gonna leave feeling better. And I love what you said. Sometimes I leave feeling better because I've been chastised, I've been guided, I've been given direction in a spirit of affection how often do people leave an interaction with you, feeling better or worse about themselves?

Great question that I find really helpful.

[00:33:28] Mahan Tavakoli: One of the best leaders I worked for Dave had been c e O of American Management Association, then came over to the Carnegie, was A C O of the Carnegie he was very demanding and did chastises us. We adored him. I still, to this day, many years later, adore him because he truly cared about me as a person.

It was never to embarrass me. In front of other people and he helped me become a better version of myself. So those are the leaders that really impact us, the ones that care enough to coach us and help elevate us and hold us accountable to that high performance.

[00:34:15] Dave Ulrich: I totally agree. By the way, I knew you'd done Dale Carnegie work. I've gotta tell you, the Dale Carnegie book, how to Stop Worrying and Start Living Changed My Life. , I'm a worrier. I was newly wed, my wife knew I was a worrier. I was a high achiever. I went to see somebody a career psychologist, said, read this book.

Here's my takeaway. What's the worst thing that can happen? What's the worst thing that can happen? By the way, I've asked that question dozens of times a year, hundreds of time in my career. I'm gonna take a. I'm gonna go meet with Jack Welt. Give me a break. What do I have to meet with the greatest leader of his generation?

I'm gonna go do coaching in this company. I'm not qualified. I'm gonna go speak at this company and tell them at the last second, I worked with 15 companies who failed. What's the worst thing that can happen? They're gonna throw me out. Okay. By the way, they probably should . I love that question because it allows me to then take an informed risk.

So at Dale Carnegie, I know there's so many other tools that Dale Carnegie and the team since then have created. But I've just gotta say that's one meta messages that has stayed with me. Dave, go for it. Take a risk. What's the worst thing that can happen? You can live with. Take the risk. More often than not, you'll succeed.

And if you fail, I'm gonna go back to your number one value. Have a growth mindset. Failure is an opportunity to learn. You tried it, it didn't work. That's okay. What did you learn? I love that question. What's the worst thing that can happen? I can live with that. Move on.

[00:35:48] Mahan Tavakoli: It is really impactful and in all my travels I was hugged at the airport. In Bangalore and people all around the world have benefited from that Now. Dave, one of the things that you mentioned that worrying that I've noticed with many senior level executives, most especially CEOs, is an extreme level of anxiety.

And right now, Mental health challenges that leaders of organizations are facing. Axios even had a report on how mid-level and senior level managers in organizations are feeling extreme anxiety at the highest levels that they ever have. So I wonder if you are seeing the same thing and what advice you would.

For CEOs or leaders. I was just having a conversation earlier today with someone who was saying, no one understands me, not my board, not my executive team, and I can't talk to them. . There was a lot of frustration and a lot of tension built up in the expectations that whether it is the board, other stakeholders and employees have of this individual, are you seeing that and how do you guide senior executives and leaders to manage this very stressful time?

[00:37:27] Dave Ulrich: I love what you just said. The world has just been through a physical pandemic where physically we were isolated and struggling. I think some of that's getting over. Hopefully, Lord willing, but we're moving into an emotional endemic, and that's the mental health wellbeing crisis I think we face.

And again, I'm just gonna do a very simple topology, depression looking backward, anxiety looking forward. The mental health has both of those. The underlying feature of that depression, when I look back with my history, my anxiety when I look forward is a sense of. We don't know what's gonna happen. And when you have that uncertainty, you try to chase it.

Can I get ahead of it? Can I manage it? Can I take it away? And by the way we face that in the world we live in right now, are we gonna be able to hire people or not hire people? Are we gonna work at home or remotely or virtually?

Where do we work? How do. The answer for me is, I don't know. So here's the advice I give executives In order to care for your mental health in a world of uncertainty, focus on the certainty. Don't chase uncertainty. Now, we still try to chase uncertainty. We do scenario planning and alternatives that way.

Go back to the question where we started. What are you clear about for. For you, I'm gonna have a growth mindset and I'm gonna have a positive impact on people's lives. You know what? If the world is in a recession, I'm gonna do those things. If the world is in a growth model, I'm gonna do those things. If we work at home, if we work in the office hybrid, I don't care where we work.

If we have more technology, less technology strategy, a blue pink or orange ocean, I'm gonna do those things. And so what I love to talk to executives is live in a world of uncertainty by being certain, take care of yourself. What are you certain about? And then the other things seem to fall away. Here's the example.

You've told me you have two beautiful daughters, 13 and 16. I'm gonna make a prediction. You don't know for sure where they'll go to school. You don't know for sure who they might have relationships with. You don't know what they might study. You have an idea, but you don't know for sure. You don't know where they might live.

You don't know what their lifestyle might be their. Now, let me ask you a question. As a father, what do you know about your relationship with them, regardless of all the others, what would you say? What do you know?

[00:39:53] Mahan Tavakoli: It will be strong, loving, supportive throughout the years.

[00:39:58] Dave Ulrich: Got it. Now they're 13 and 16 and they're gonna test that . But by the way, I know with my children and grandchildren, I will love them. I will support. I don't know what they're gonna study. I don't know where they're gonna live, but I know that, I think the same thing is true with an executive. What does she know?

What is her certainty? And I think it's true with the company. What do we as a company stand for? I've read your strategic leadership work, which is so good. Get those clear. And then when the winds blow and the ocean house stick with that purpose. And I believe that with that focus, caring for ourselves, caring for our companies with certainty, the uncertainties become less critical.

[00:40:44] Mahan Tavakoli: That's a beautiful way to balance ourselves, Dave, as I believe that level of uncertainty will continue. A lot of people were hoping for a return to some normalcy. I don't know if you've had a chance to spend any time on Chat, G p t or Dolly or not open ai, introduce those. So it's a chance to see conversational artificial intelligence

[00:41:15] Dave Ulrich: It's amazing. It scares me by the way. I don't know what it means. I'm still, in fact, my daughter, who's a professor of sociology, said, dad, it's not plagiarism. People can go in and get a paper written and it's better than what they'd write. How do I grade though? I'm still struggling with what that all means.

You can teach me. I don't.

[00:41:37] Mahan Tavakoli: I have experts in artificial intelligence as guests because I think it's important. I would like to know about its impact and I know the audience would want to understand it better. I was showing it to my girls.

So my 13 year old first asked Chad, g p t to write a poem in Shakespearean style about volleyball because she loves volleyball. And Chad, g p t came back with a really cute. She experienced style, a play on volleyball. Then she gave some details about her. 16 year old sister asked for it to write a poem about her sister and Chad, g p t did.

So all of a sudden she said, dad, I can now do my homework on this

[00:42:31] Dave Ulrich: That's the dilemma our daughter did something? She introduced it to me she asked, what's wrong with Dave Ulrich's theory? And it wrote a response and she said, dad, I've studied your approach and here's the thing's wrong with it.

And I said, holy smokes. That's pretty thoughtful. Welcome to the new world. I love what you said, growth mindset, positive difference for me. How do I learn that creates value for others. Same kind of agenda. We're gonna figure out chat, G p T and figure out where it fits. One of the creators of that told me, and he was not directly in that, but he's in that area of ai and you'll talk to these innovators, he said, I could rewrite the.

Let me read Paul's epistles, put 'em into the funnel and say, I want a new epistle, but this is the doctrine. I want or the Book of Revelations. Let me create a couple new scriptures and we're gonna have to sort, we're gonna have to sort. The one thing I learned is the critiques of my work were not as accurate as they could have been.

There were better critiques. I know the things wrong with my work. They're gonna get better and that will be a new world we live in. I remember when I was a student so long ago, I took a course in statistics called factor analysis and the professor was one of the creators of this with using matrix algebra, and he said, I want you to do a 24 by 24 matrix, a factor analysis longhand.

Do not do a program. I gotta confess. I wrote a program and turned it in. I got a low grade in the class. That's gonna be the future. We're gonna see young men and young women like your daughters and many using chat, G P t in a way that allows them to articulate language. And there'll be a way that we can get around that.

I don't know it yet. That'll be fun to see.

[00:44:20] Mahan Tavakoli: As a fun aside, Dave. One of the things about it is that it is also partly like an 18 year old version of me. even when wrong. Very confident. So it can criticize what you have written confidently, even when wrong. So you have contributed a lot of outstanding perspectives.

It's gonna take Jet G P T quite a while to be able to poke holes

[00:44:46] Dave Ulrich: In that world. That may be 20 seconds, but I've also been invited. You have an avatar. I've been invited to get an avatar. I don't have one yet. Cuz I'd rather be in person than the image of myself. What we're talking about is this new world. I don't understand that world, but I do understand certainty for you.

I wanna help build a growth mindset that has positive impact. Same kind of things for me. I wanna learn in a way that creates growth in others. You know what? Stick with those. They'll be new tools that'll keep coming. They'll keep on coming. And that's what leadership is about. , I look at you, you have fun with it, with your daughters and say, okay, here we go.

Let's see what this looks like. And. If your 13 year old, can figure it out before her teachers, she may get a year ahead.

[00:45:33] Mahan Tavakoli: That's why learning from people like you, Dave, over the years has been. Such an incredible joy for me, most especially because I have to read really fast to try to keep up with all the work and research that you put out with your fun style and humility, which I absolutely love. I wonder Dave, Are there any leadership practices you recommend to leaders as they look to guide their teams and organizations into the uncertainty of.

[00:46:11] Dave Ulrich: I am gonna go back to that meta message of how will what you do help others what do you think? That's a simple question. How will what we do today help you be successful tomorrow? Simple question. What matters most to you? What can I do to help you reach your goals?

What are you trying to accomplish? Again, that outside in value in the mind of the receiver logic. I think if I were picking a practice domain, that would probably be it. Leadership is not about you. It's about what you do to help others reach their goals. And that's easier said than. . I don't do that all the time.

 People say, Dave, what do you think about this? And instead of saying, why do you need to know that? How will that help you? I love to say, let me tell you what I know That's a seduction. What I know may not matter to you as much is what you need to know. And I hope leaders can see that. And that's also part of that mental health agenda.

Where do we get our joy? By helping others discover their joy. Our mental health comes from their mental.

[00:47:17] Mahan Tavakoli: That's a beautiful. Put it day for the audience to find out more about you will put links into show notes. How best can they follow your continuing work

[00:47:32] Dave Ulrich: You were gracious. I've written a lot of books. My friend told me I have a disease. I had to look it up, called Hypergraphia. I'm addicted to writing. I love to write. I write a lot. I've written 30 books. The last two years I've not. I'm on LinkedIn and I have found LinkedIn to be a global water cooler.

If that metaphor works, I almost never look at who made a comment. I'll look at a comment on something I've written and people challenge all the time. By the way, there's 20% that are stupid challenges. After a while, you get over that. On this podcast and every other one, somebody's gonna make a stupid comment and that's fine.

But I love people that make thoughtful comments and respond. And this morning, in fact, we got into a dialogue with two people. One is from, I think he's from Lebanon, if I remember right. One from the uk. And we went back and forth three times within 10 minutes. Join me on LinkedIn. I think that's a global water cooler.

Now, there still may be a place for books. I'm not gonna deny that. And I've thought about another book, but I think we need a forum to have a global platform to. And I hope this podcast, if you're listening and it's out there and it's on LinkedIn or posted, join me Challenge, push me. And if you really think something's very bad, go to Mahan and push him by the way.

That's okay. And I hope neither of us will look at who's the source of the idea. We'll look at the idea and try to grow from it. Follow me on.

[00:48:59] Mahan Tavakoli: I've followed your work for quite a while, Dave, and in preparing for the conversation I listened to a lot of episodes. . And I saw. A consistency in these conversations in addition to the value that you added through your insights, your genuine humility and curiosity came across which I appreciated.

And also the consistency with which you make the people you interact with, feel. Better. So this is not something that you just say in conversation with partnering leadership. You do it consistently. I'm sure there are days you might not. There are days I am not my perfect self. However, that's part of what makes me appreciate.

Your content even more because you try to live what you tell other leaders they should do. So I really appreciate you taking the time to share some of your thoughts and perspectives with me and the partnering leadership community. Thank you so much, Dave. Will Rich.

[00:50:07] Dave Ulrich: You're so kind. I'm gonna ask you a question. You knew I probably would. I love this. If your 16 year old or 13 year old said, I've been assigned to do a paper about what are one or two of the lessons from this company called Partnering leadership. There's dozens, hundreds of podcasts. What are one or two meta lessons that I need to take away?

And I wanna write the paper. I don't wanna go to chat. G p t. Dad, what are a couple of the lessons? What would you say is a way for me to learn from you? Just a couple of the lessons that you just instantly distill from the conversations you've.

[00:50:46] Mahan Tavakoli: Some of the very best, whether the CEOs that I've talked to, Dave or people like you, Some of the very best, in my view, have a beautiful balance of confidence and humility. You have tremendous success. You are the father of modern day hr. However, you have the humility to ask questions and try to learn and engage in conversation, and I.

Both continually impressed with it, whether it's you. My interactions with Stephen Covey, Ken Blanchard, they really are genuinely good people looking to also learn as well as contribute. So that's. One that, for me stands out. Then the second part of it is that level of growth mindset. The people that I have enjoyed the conversations most with are the ones that.

Are themselves looking and learning on an ongoing, consistent basis. They have not found the truth. They're continuing to look and on a journey of developing themselves as well as contributing to others.

[00:52:01] Dave Ulrich: Thank you. Have noticed if those were watching, I have a page of notes from our conversation thank you. Thank you my friend. I leave this interaction feeling better about myself. Thank you.