375 March Refresh: Andrea Sampson on the Power of Strategic Storytelling in Leadership

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[00:00:00] Mahan Tavakoli: Andrea

Sampson, welcome to Partnering Leadership. I am thrilled to have you in this conversation

with me.

[00:00:05] Andrea Sampson: Thank you so much. I'm

absolutely thrilled to be here with you today, Mahan.

[00:00:10] Mahan Tavakoli: Can't wait

to talk about Talk Boutique and your belief in transformative power of storytelling, Andrea.

I

wholeheartedly agree with you. But

before we get to that, we'd love to know a

little bit about your origin story.

Whereabouts did

you grow up and how did

your upbringing help contribute to

who you've

become? 

[00:00:29] Andrea Sampson: Thanks so much for that

question. I grew up 

in a small city on the east

coast of Canada just outside of Halifax

and grew up, as somebody who always had

an opinion on everything.

My

family is from Cape Breton, which if you know anything at

all about Cape Bretoners, we are avid storytellers.

And my mother was

always telling us stories

 As I grew

up, I knew that

I wanted to do something bigger and more with my life and this,

Small city that I grew up in wasn't going to allow me to do that. So I moved

to the big city of

when I was in my early twenties.

And, As everything

I've done in my life, I've done

it with

lots of

flourish. I, didn't know anyone, didn't

have a job, but packed up everything I knew into my car

and literally sold

my car on the journey

to Toronto and ended up in the big city having to create a

life. And, it was probably one of the

decisions I ever made. I.

quickly

Fell into marketing. And at the time I was

going

to school, but started

doing marketing through the lens of the not for profit world and was a fundraiser and,

Really loved what

that was giving me. As

a fundraiser, a big part of, what

I had to do was to

people

to invest in the charity that I

working for

with really, No give back.

It's not like you're buying

a product. I used to say I

was selling a smile. And so what I

had to do was

to tell stories

that made people want to

actually, invest

, in those charities. I eventually made my way into advertising

and spent many years

working in

advertising, started off in

direct marketing where I

did lots of storytelling, writing long form direct.

mail letters. And then from there

when to email , and I eventually moved out of

marketing and

into brand marketing and eventually into brand strategy. And, after 25

years of working inside

of agencies, I started to realize something about myself.

And that was that, Early on in my career

and early on in my journey, I always

had this

Deep desire to create impact

to leave the world maybe a little

better than I found

it. And 25

years into my advertising career, I realized I was an idealist in a capitalist world. And I was at a

place where while The

medium itself

incredibly powerful and it has the ability to create social

change. The reality is advertising is about selling product. And I just couldn't do it anymore. My time was ending. And so I

started looking for something new and what happened was I got very lucky to be volun hired

by TEDx Toronto.

And

this was in the early days

of the TEDx movement. And TEDx Toronto was one of the very

first and one of the largest and most respected in the world at

the time. And I was volun hired as a speaker's coach, but I didn't

know what a speaker's coach was. I had never heard of it.

In

advertising, I was

presenting all the time,

like literally

every day,

multiple times a day.

So

I knew I was a good presenter. I knew I

could do this. But what the

TED world gave me was an

understanding 

of storytelling that I had never

had up until that point. As I said, I came from a long line of storytellers. We were natural storytellers and in advertising, I was constantly presenting

clients, whether it be ad campaigns

or research.

And we had to tell stories,

but I'd never

been taught how to tell a story. And in the Ted world, I learned the importance, not just of story, but of story with an idea inside of it,

because that's actually what happens in

the Ted world. That's why we love Ted

Talks. We get fed a beautiful

story and inside of

it

is an

idea.

And that idea is so crystal clear. We understand it with such

degree of clarity that

were changed. And in the changing of ourselves, we want to change others. So we

tell

that story and that idea goes along with it. That's the secret and

the beauty

of TED talks. I like to

call them Trojan horses, right? Stories are

carriers for ideas. That's what they are. And so I took away this really

skill because here was

the thing I had spent my entire career learning how to take

very complex ideas.

and reduce them down into very simple insights, which is

what our ad campaigns would

be based on. That was my

job. I was a

strategist and a planner inside the agency

world. And so I

had this skill. And now I had the ability to tell

story

consistently and to take that idea and put it inside of that story.

And that was what led me to create

my company, Talk

Boutique, and now more recently

the Thought Leader Academy.

And so these two things

are really the sum total of my life's work 

and over time, what

I've learned is that,

Everyone

has a story, but not every

story deserves to be

on the TED

stage. And that's an interesting insight. But

also for everyone that

makes it there,

There are 10 more that are equally as deserving that don't.

and how do those stories

get told? And the reason they don't make it there

often is

For something like it didn't fit the theme,

or the speaker wasn't able to convey their idea

clearly.

And so Talk Boutique

was created

out of that deep

desire to

take these change makers, these

experts who

were doing the work, so busy doing the

they

weren't telling anyone about it and to help them to become the storytellers who were

conveying ideas

that were world changing.

And

that's really why I do

what I do

today.

 I appreciate you laying the groundwork for how you ended

[00:06:19] Mahan Tavakoli: up

both doing

this and the passion and the commitment that you have

for it, the

clarity with which, whether it's

brands or

individuals and thought leaders communicate

is critical. critical and helps differentiate them and stories can serve as a vehicle

for that.

Before getting

some of the

specifics on how that can be done well,

you

mentioned that you grew up in a storytelling tradition including your mom and the community.

 Whether you've all

[00:06:52] Mahan Tavakoli: Noah Harari, his book Sapiens does an outstanding

job talking about humanity and

how

we became what

we became in part as a result of stories and storytelling, or when you picture

campfires, Native Americans, or

Tribes in

Africa or any

part of the world, people would get together,

share and listen to

stories.

So it has been part of.

What we've

had to do. Why is it that now  when I

see executive

CEOs wanting to communicate

a message,

they would

agree with you.

The storytelling is

critical.

They would agree with

me, but

then have such a difficult time doing it. If this has been such a core part

of our

humanity,

[00:07:40] Andrea Sampson: it's a great question.

 We are hardwired for story. Actually, there's brain science behind it. There's all kinds of things

that would tell us that story is actually the key to understanding. Why?

Because

it's context. And I think the biggest challenge that most of us have is that

story has been trained out of us.

Why?

Because there's a belief that

story adds

embellishments and unnecessary

details that Distracts the listener from the facts and

the data

 I work with a lot

[00:08:12] Andrea Sampson: of scientists and academics and literally story

has been trained out

of them. Do not tell stories, right? Why? Again, it comes back to facts and data.

But here's

the

thing. Our brains are multifaceted. We have many

different cortices in our brains. When

we tell facts and data, we're actually only speaking to the frontal lobes of our brain, to the language processing system of our brain. The problem

with that is that brains are associative, memories are associative,

and the more parts of our brain that we

engage, the more

likely it is

we're going to remember something.

When we tell stories, what we're doing is we're actually

using the sensory cortices within our brain.

So sight, sound, touch, taste,

these are all different cortices within our brain.

And so

when I'm telling a story,

of course I'm

doing things

like I'm talking

about,

The smell of rain in the air

and the sound , of the leaves crunching

beneath

my feet.

Your

brain is already lit up. You're already smelling and

hearing those

things.

Now, if

I were to give you

a piece of data right now,

you'd remember it. You'd associate it

to those two things. And when you hear the crunch of leaves under your feet, it

might recall that piece of data.

The

belief that data

It has to be told alone is probably the worst thing we

do because

we've given no association.

Our language processing part of our brain has no way of remembering it.

So why don't we

tell stories?

Two

reasons. One,

we've been told that

stories

are not additive.

to the facts and data.

And two,

We've never been taught how to

tell stories. So we have a belief that we're

bad at it. And no one, especially in a leadership role, wants to

do something that they feel that they're not good at.

And so learning how to tell a story is probably one of the most beneficial things that people in the

corporate world can do. Because when we begin a presentation

with a story right away, we've got our audience's attention.

[00:10:18] Mahan Tavakoli:  I couldn't agree with you

more. So the question is, how

do we do that when I'm talking to executives and if I ask him about

a favorite childhood memory, they come up with a story, they're comfortable sharing it,

but then when getting in front of the audience,

Company talking about the organization's strategic plan

or anything

else.

How

am I going to

connect?

Absolutely.

Any

Stories

about walking on the leaves or

the smell of fall or smell of the flowers

to this. So

how can leaders find the right story to connect to their strategic message? 

[00:10:58] Andrea Sampson: There's a lot

of different ways.

So the first thing is what's your strategic message. So before you get to the story,

what is the idea?

That you want to put inside of

that story.

And I think

this is one of the biggest

mistakes that people make.

And this happens all the time. I work with tons

of leaders and, we'll be working on

something And, they'll come to the session

really excited.

got this great story I want to share. Great.

What do you want to put inside of it? And that's

the thing. We don't start

in the preparation.

When you're preparing

a presentation,

don't start with the story. Start with the idea. Make sure you've got your idea clear. Know what it is

you want your audience

hear. So let's say that as a corporate leader, you've got to deliver to the organization

the story that you did not

hit your corporate goals

in the last

quarter. However, Changes have been made and

the business is actually on a recovery and everybody's jobs

are safe. So don't worry.

Perhaps that's what you have to

deliver. Now, first of all, let's look at that. What is that message? That message is comprised of three things, a topic. Okay. The topic is

fiscal responsibility. 

Then there's the point. What's the point I'm making about fiscal responsibility. We didn't hit our goals,

but. We've already

changes and now we're confident that we've got the right team, the right approach and the right timing to hit our goals. Okay. And then finally,

what's the output,

or the outcome?

The

outcome of that

is

that

we're going to hit our goals

and we're going to overachieve because we've got the right team. And by doing

that, we're all

going to see

a better next year. That's the

three pieces, a

topic,

a

point,

and

an

outcome, or a

what, a how, and

a why. 

So that's the idea.

Now, if that's the idea that we want to put

Into context,

now we go, okay, what's

a story that

could hold that?

Really that idea is about

overcoming the problem.

Difficult odds, and learning

from your past

mistakes. That's what that

idea really is all about.

So

when was a time for

you that you overcame odds that you learned from

the mistakes of the past

and were able to overachieve because of that?

So

then we find something that they resonate

with, that's actually true

for them, that they

are feeling very connected with. Then what we do is we build that story in such a way that they really feel it. So that

they're not just telling

story, but

they're seeing that they're telling

a story that leads

to that idea.

So perhaps

that story is about

 Them

in university

where

they were perhaps failing a course

that was key to the university degree.

And they had a big sort of

moment of

awareness

that they then

had to overcome. So what

we do is we take that story. So we say, okay, let's break it down. What

happened? When was the moment

you knew? Did you know? That you had to change.

And

so we find that moment because that's a moment of tension,

And what we want with a moment of tension is to be able to set things up.

Then what we do is we say, okay, now

Let's bring us into

that story. So we go

into

it through the lens of emotional language. We set it up in the first

person. I was sitting

at my desk 

Writing out an essay.

It was midnight. This was due

by 8am

the next morning. I hadn't even started it. That

essay was the make or break of whether or not I was

going to pass

My American literature course. And I need it that in order to get my law degree. It was a reality for

me. I knew

that this was it. And I knew that I had really messed up that I needed to get this done. So

my fifth cup of coffee. The smell. was around me. That

pot had been on since

seven o'clock. You

could smell burnt coffee. I was still

drinking it. It

tasted horrible, but I wasn't drinking it

for the taste.

I

knew

that I absolutely

had to get this done.

I had stacks of books

around me. I had read some of them, not all.

All of them. And I was now doing the work.

Now that story would

continue. We might go into a little bit more depth, but what it's

leading to is, as I handed that essay, or

as I was finishing

the final words on that essay, and it was

now

seven o'clock in the morning, I

less than an hour

to get it to

my prof.

I was really realizing that, I think I was going to be able to do it.

But this was not a feeling I

ever wanted

to have in the future. And this is where we are right now

as a company. Last quarter was

tough. Every one of you felt it. You know that we did not

hit our goals and we've

had to make some hard choices,

but everyone

here has. Is here because you matter.

You're here because you are part

of what we're doing moving forward. We've got

right people, the

right plan, and

we're in the

right place to make that

happen.

I know that we will achieve.

So you can see how that story now led

to that idea and when you teach a corporate executive how to do that.

they see the power

of it because

what just

happened,

every one of

us have been that person at midnight drinking stale coffee, writing the essay that they didn't

get done

or the presentation. We've all

been there. Because when I tell

you my story, you're hearing your story. And our brain actually does this.

Our brain populates it

with ourselves

as we're listening to the story that's being told to us. First of all, we've all been there.

Secondly, you're riveted. You can't not listen to

that, right? You want to know what's going to happen.

And when

I transitioned into the idea. It contextualized it

perfectly. I was able to

suddenly now move into

a place of

making sure that everybody knew that they were in the right place. So when corporate leaders learn that skill. It changes the way they

story. It's no longer story, it's

context. And that's the difference. It's what I call idea centric storytelling.

And I think that's the difference

between corporate storytelling, and storytelling that,

look, we all love telling a good story. And

like I said, I

grew up in a family of storytellers

and I've heard many. Few of them had points. Let's

put it that way. 

[00:17:31] Mahan Tavakoli:  You

start out with the idea in mind first, then

the story

that serves as a

vehicle to carry that idea. 

I'm a big advocate for leaders, not being the

heroes of the stories

themselves.

So my

question for you is

how

do you tell

a story of

vulnerability that

serves

as a vehicle without. It being about

you or how you've been able to overcome in the past.

so you will be able to overcome in the future. 

[00:18:08] Andrea Sampson: I guess

really comes down

the way in which you

convey that and also the other players

in the story,

, look, we all live our own lives. We've got

our own stories, right? So that's what we have as the basis for it. But when you

a story that says, Hey, I

did this so you can

too.

It feels very

self centered, when you tell a story that is about, look, I

really

messed up. That's the point

of the story.

Like the story that I just told was he messed up

or that person messed up. It's

not like I did this so you can

too. It was,

I know that feeling,

that's a

feeling I never want to have again.

So when you're being vulnerable, it's not about tying it up in a nice tidy bow.

It's actually staying in the

discomfort

of

feeling. And then it's not about you.

It's actually about this thing, this situation,

the happening. It's about the tension, not about the

person. The person is the vehicle for the

tension.

And that's the difference, I

think, in terms of storytelling that

is,

All about me

and look,

just going to motivate

you and tell you that we can all do it. Or we go, look. This is real. We've all had these moments. I'm not the only

person. And

I mess

up

all the time.

 And leaders

often are afraid to do this

because it shows

them in a vulnerable

position. There's a school of thought that says as a leader, you shouldn't be vulnerable,

which is, the absolute worst thing, because the

reality is we are all

at some

point in our lives.

And when we lean into that

vulnerability, that is a strength as a leader,

because you're really showing that you are.

You care about the people who you're working with and

you,

and you

care about the thing that you're working

on. And emotions are powerful.

So vulnerability

is the way that we connect with our

audiences,

whether they're one

or a

thousand

people.

[00:20:03] Mahan Tavakoli: Absolutely. It's vulnerability

with a purpose. Sometimes leaders get

uncomfortable when they

hear about vulnerability

because sometimes the vulnerability that's talked about is out of context and without

purpose. So I use the

example of

Nadella, who I believe

has done a magnificent job as CEO of

Microsoft.

And

he. Has repeatedly shared the story of

his son, Zane, who is

now,

the CEO. Passed away, but had been born with severe disabilities. And the way

Nadella shares that

it

is sharing genuine vulnerability, but he builds on the empathy that gave him the strength that his wife had, but the empathy

That gave him, and he makes a

point about his need to be more empathetic and

therefore everyone at the Microsoft

and the leadership team as well.

it's genuine vulnerability in service

of a message. It is

not being

vulnerable just for the sake of being

vulnerable. 

[00:21:09] Andrea Sampson: And that's key.

That's absolutely key. You can overshare. And there's

also the piece that says, is this ready to

be shared?

There's a

saying that says, share from your scars, not your wounds. And I think it's a really

powerful, idea

 Especially in today's world where, , we open our social feed and there's, somebody telling us about

all these horrible things that

have happened to

them.

And they're trying to heal

, through sharing,

[00:21:32] Andrea Sampson: which is the worst place because you're really

traumatizing other

people. So when we share

our scars,

what's happened is we've got the meaning of

it.

We understand we've taken that out and we've seen how we grew and changed as humans

because of that

trauma.

And so when we share the vulnerability of it, we're sharing the lesson

and

not just the

happening. And I think that's

key. 

[00:21:54] Mahan Tavakoli: Absolutely love it. That helps differentiate the focus on the

scars, 

they have

healed. They are lessons

that are left

as opposed to the wounds 

it's best to leave them until they have healed. Exactly.  You  also, have a

heart for social change.

having initially

gotten involved

in

philanthropy and

fundraising.

storytelling can also serve as a tool for that social change. But I

see a lot of

Organizations, that

a horrible job with it, Andrea.

So how can storytelling be a

vehicle for effective social change and done well 

[00:22:42] Andrea Sampson: Like I said, I did start my career

in

the not for

profit world and

One of the reasons I left was because it

became so bureaucratic. The reality

was we were, trying to

change the world for the causes

that we were in.

I worked in health

charities and what

I saw so much

of was that it

was so much caught up in, the, all the agendas of people who were volunteering and the

perceptions of

this person versus that person. And I left because of that. But, when I started Talk Boutique, one of the things that we got involved

with was an organization called Singularity University, which is a think tank out of Silicon Valley.

And we became deeply involved.

In

fact, I was part

of the team

that brought Singularity to Canada.

And

what I learned through that organization is that social change is

more than

just words on a page.

Social change is actually a collective

initiative of many

different organizations and people.

It's about dedicating

your lives and your careers

to impact

And impact is a different

thing. Impact is looking at it

saying,

what

is the purpose that you

have?

And how are you

contributing

to that purpose? And is

that purpose. aligned to

what is needed for the future that

we want to create.

And so

when we take that step back

go, okay, what is the future we want to create? So

as social change organizations, we have to

be looking at where

are we today? And what's

the future we actually want

and how are we contributing to

that?

Because the future

is

co created by the thought leaders who have the voices that are speaking to

our future.

And so today when we look around, one

of the challenges that we have is that there isn't a lot of diversity in our thought leadership. And

so how do we create social

change? We each speak up because the more of us who are speaking, who

are looking different

than those who

are in

power today, we

start to co create

a different future, just simply by our voices, because the reality is

each person

who is

communicating what they believe is important.

should be part

of our future is communicating it in a way that is different because they look

different, they sound different, they maybe have a different cultural background, perhaps they've got a different

belief set, and that brings the idea in a different light.

So what happens when we are

in the world of

impact? Is we have to choose

to share our ideas more freely.

We have to choose to step into our own

voice. And so when that happens,

we're all contributing towards

a co

created future, a vision for that.

So in my world right now, this is something I

a lot about 

why? Because

I believe we need diversity

of thought leadership. So we create an inclusive. And sustainable future that is reflective of everyone

who's living within it. That's my,

why. That's what I do. That is the place that I

come from.

[00:25:56] Mahan Tavakoli: So to do that Andrea, I actually earlier today had a conversation with the CEO who was mentioning her reluctance in sharing some

of that thought

in part, because of the expectations the board

in part because of

expectations from the community.

So I find

that rather than creating

social change, sometimes We end up

conforming to the expectations we assume others have

of us.

[00:26:31] Andrea Sampson: Yeah. 

[00:26:32] Mahan Tavakoli: So how can this storytelling be done well in a way that serves the

purpose? and

aligns with some of the expectations that the different stakeholders

have of the 

[00:26:48] Andrea Sampson: I think it's a challenge, 

What

happens is we come into these roles.

Excited for the

change we can make. Like

I think to my own self, when I was

advertising,

I came in thinking, I

can use this

powerful

medium to create social change. 25

years on, I was

like, no, it's selling product.

I'm not going to make that change. And what happens in the meanwhile.

so we come in with this great expectation

and

then the realities of the

expectations. hits us. Everybody thinks, that we want to make

change, but reality is,

way easier to stay

the same.

So how do we in some ways buck

the

system without

actually hurting

ourselves? And it's challenging,

not going

to lie. That is not an

easy thing, but

 I think there's two things to do.

One is,

Give

yourself space and

time.

You don't have

to do everything at once. And I think this is one of the challenges as humans. None of

us have patience,

 We want it to all happen right now. And you got to give it time. You do, because it's going

to take time. But secondly, it is

also being very clear, even coming into it, what your belief

is.

So

Don't go

into it saying one thing, and then think

that as you're in it, can change and be something else. Be

clear, because you'll go to the right organization. And if that

organization is not aligning to what

it is that you want

to change, you as the thought leader have to make

the

decision to change. It's not the place for you. It's

not about confirming your

vision

to them.

It's

about keeping

your vision and finding the place where that vision is welcomed. 

There's a saying about, don't run

from those who don't like you run to

those

who embrace you.

And

 That is very true. So that's

a piece of it. Now,

the reality is. Creating change

is not easy.

You're going to come up against

a lot of pushback,

even when you're embraced, even when

everyone's agreeing, everyone's going

to have an opinion of what's the right way, when we are trying to create deep social change.

It's not about right and wrong. There is no right and wrong. The reality is we're only closer

or further from

the place we want to go. And so when we approach that pushback, those

board members,

those,

Committee members

who are saying, no, the way to do it is this,

is to approach it with curiosity.

Tell me

more.

Tell me

more about your way of doing it. I'd love to hear it

rather than going, no, here's the way,

or, that's in

opposition

to what I'm doing. Invite the conversation, invite the voice,

bring it

in, invite more, you'll learn more. And I think

that's what's key because we're not taught

that.

We're taught

right and wrong. , in fact, curiosity, much like storytelling is often trained

out of us because we're told it's not helpful, which is actually not true.

Curiosity is probably one of the most powerful tools in our toolbox, and it's the least

used. So approach it all with curiosity, invite

more conversations in, listen to them, and then incorporate

them In your conversation, 

[00:30:13] Mahan Tavakoli: that is really helpful. And as

mentioned, it requires a greater level of curiosity now, I would love to get your

thoughts also,

on the

applications of storytelling to Brands. I know you've over the years worked with and use examples of great brands, whether the apples of the world do a great job, Disney does an outstanding job.

One of the

questions and challenges I typically

get from a lot of business executives. Whenever we talk about some of these brands is,

yeah, but they are fill in

the blank,

They are Disney.

and I just heading up this 200 person, 300 percent organization, what are some

storytelling? Lessons and practices that

can be transferred for

smaller organizations

so they can learn to

incorporate in their own branding. 

[00:31:13] Andrea Sampson: That's a great question. When we think about, whether it's Apple or Disney or, insert iconic

brand

here, right? Cause

that's the

thing. We, there are these

amazing iconic brands out there and

why are they iconic? They're iconic

because we see their

consistency , everywhere, so Apple, what is

is it that makes Apple iconic?

It's had this,

For 30 years,

it's had a focus on 

As Steve Jobs used to say, it was the intersection of humanity and technology. And so

everything that Apple does

always brings the human

into the technology in some way. And we see that. Mostly through the

lens of creativity.

In the early

and

I remember the

early days of Apple, it was a tribe,

right?

We saw

ourselves as being

creative. We were

not the

boring, coders who

were sitting and, just coding

away. We were the creative people.

And so

if you align to that, you had an Apple

your

desk, not a PC, not, whatever the PC version was in

days.

 If we think of Disney, Disney is about imagination.

[00:32:21] Andrea Sampson: It's about always living in this place of what if. What could be? And every part of their brand brings us into that place. We think of

BMW,, it's iconic. Why? Because it's all about performance. It's all about, how fast

can

go? , these are

iconic brands.

And so what can we learn from

iconic brands? We can learn

a

of

things. One, they have a singular focus.

I just said it, right?

Creativity,

imagination,

performance,

and they

are slaves to that

one thing.

And they tell stories about that one thing all the time.

So if

you're a group of 200 people working on one thing,

you

tell

that story, right? And the thing is, that

story can be really refined and you can go,

all right, now, I If I was Disney and

all

about imagination

How would I answer

my phone? What would my

text messages sound like? Now

I can imagine that

maybe my text message might be written

  By Jiminy Cricket perhaps.

[00:33:31] Andrea Sampson: And

so the voice sounds like that. If my company is now all about imagination, but I'm not Disney.

Then what does my

text

sound

like using

Disney

as the lens?

So

we can take

, these ideas from other brands, iconic brands

that have been very successful, deconstruct them, but then use

the lessons to apply to our

much smaller and much more,

Growing

businesses.

We're not there yet, but we can learn from those who are.

 It's a big challenge though, Andrea, 

[00:34:04] Mahan Tavakoli: you gave outstanding examples of these big brands

that

Try to own

one

word and align with that one word. And every

I have

conversations with executives around

their brand,

they

up with 89 different sentences

[00:34:18] Andrea Sampson: course. Of course. Yes.

[00:34:21] Mahan Tavakoli: even though the organization is so much

smaller,

they want

to

own everything and they want to be known as everything.

So that by itself

is a hard

process. Before then reflecting on if it is

one word you want to own in the

mind of people that interact with your

brand, how do you exhibit that in your messages, in

the

that go out, in everything that you do?

[00:34:49] Andrea Sampson: I

think

you have to own a feeling. How do you want people to feel?

And I think

that's way easier than the word.

 Let's say that you're a technology

that's developing

apps for

lots of different

clients. How do you want your clients to feel? You probably want

clients

to feel empowered.

You probably want them to feel like they're secure with you. Okay. Empowered and secure.

What does that feel like? What does

that sound like? What does that look like?

Where we get caught up on the one

word is it's all the words are taken. Imagination

already

taken by Disney.

I can't own that.

Not really true. But when we go to emotions, I

think we can get there. There's lots of emotions and it's

a little easier. So I think that's one

piece

it. I

think the other piece of it is to also not get so caught up into making it, perfect.

, and

again, as leaders, we do this,

right? Like it's

not quite

it. We're not quite there. If we're almost there, we're close enough. I used to have a client who would always say, I only ever want to get to 80%.

I don't want to get to 100%. I

only want to get to the 80%.

, the reason that he would say this was because it

was like, it's way too costly and takes far too long to get to a hundred percent. And we're going to change it before it's a hundred percent anyway. And we live in a world where everything is iterated. Now our brands should be too. Don't worry about getting them a hundred percent, get them to 80%.

Try it. Doesn't work?

Do something

else. At the 80 percent level, you can figure out, what do I want my voicemails to sound

like? What do I want my autoresponder on my text to feel When

we're at that

80%, it gives us way more flexibility.

this is

, that same I'm just

[00:36:28] Andrea Sampson: to test,

I'm just going to try it out

And I can always change it.

Don't put

ourselves

in these pegs and these

little boxes and then we get stuck. We are iterative beings.

Allow

that. 

[00:36:42] Mahan Tavakoli: Love that couple of

thoughts on it.

First of all, the 80%.

80 percent

Is a great way to think about it. Owning an emotion rather than

a word that does make it simpler and make it more accessible.

And then also, as you said, it doesn't have to

be

perfect and it doesn't have to be unique to you. All it

does

is that then therefore it

can help

guide the 80

percent of how

you exhibit it. That brand in the interactions

with all your stakeholders.

And

[00:37:22] Andrea Sampson: I think that's

powerful. ,  I tell you

When I worked

with that particular

client, it was many

years ago,

we were actually launching

e trade into Canada and it was such a profound time and

we were moving so fast, it allowed us to move even faster.

, did we make mistakes?

Of course we

did. Of course we did,

but they were not catastrophic.

And

I think that's what really was the lesson is that when we allow ourselves the ability to maneuver, we do more, we learn more, and we recognize

that failure is part

of success.

And

if

are

allowing ourselves to

then we're actually allowing ourselves to succeed faster.

[00:38:05] Mahan Tavakoli: Now,

as we do that Andrea, 

you alluded to it briefly, which

which is the importance of thought leadership

that you're spending your time and effort on as well.

And the importance That each and every one

of us need to have thought leadership as a brand. Tell me more

about that.

What is the

importance of it? And

how should we.

look at making a difference

to our storytelling,

our

thought leadership for our brands. 

 You know, first of all,

[00:38:38] Andrea Sampson: When I think of a thought leader, what is a thought

leader? A thought leader is somebody who has

knowledge and

experience. But it's also somebody who has influence, right? So they have both of those

things. And what we

find is that people

tend to lean into their

knowledge or lean into their influence. And, when we look at either sides of that,

People who lean into their

knowledge tend to be more

experts and people who lean into

their influence tend to be

what I call

change makers.

And so it's when you're able to your influence and your knowledge. that you move

into that thought

leader

right?

Where you're actually bringing what you

know and the influence

You yield

in a

way that others are able to

interact with and understand. That's what a thought leader is.

And the way you do that

is story.

That is actually what

story does. It brings those things together. So

if that's what a thought leader is then we can look at it and go if you've got

knowledge

and you've got influence,

you have the ability

to be a thought leader.

Now

again, the degree to which you're a thought leader

will change depending on where you

are, what you're doing, the amount of influence you

have, but we

to think of thought leaders only as leaders of countries or leaders of industries,

right? But that's not true. We need thought leaders

everywhere

because thought

leaders actually influence us to think differently influence us

to act differently.

And we look to them

to explain

things in ways that help us to understand them. So we actually need

more thought leaders than less.

And yet we have few thought

leaders and lots of experts and

change makers.

So what I'm proposing is that we all start understanding that we have the ability to be thought leaders. So number one, we all have the ability. If you've got knowledge

and

you have influence, and if you're listening to this

podcast, you probably have both of those

things. You wouldn't be

here if you didn't. So starting off with that, you have

the ability to be a thought leader. So

Now, what's the change, what's the impact that your thought leadership is going to have?

maybe it's about helping us to see

your area of expertise through a lens of cultural diversity or through a lens of gender diversity or

sexual orientation

that none of us have ever actually seen applied to that area of knowledge.

And when you apply

that lens to it,

what you're doing is you're

creating a new way

us

to see it.

Thank you.

That opens it up.

Now what

that does is it opens up

not only how we're seeing your

area of expertise and knowledge, but

how I

take it in

and it impacts how I see

what I do.

Because that's what happens. It's all follow on. Everything we do is co created. Everything

in our world is co created. Because I hear you,

you hear me.

We go, oh, that influenced me to think a little differently

about something.

But we have to hear each other. We have to be using our voice. 

[00:41:44] Mahan Tavakoli: It's important for all of us to contribute

to that thought leadership, as you mentioned,

Andrea, I wonder though, with. An exponential level of noise in

the world are there ways that you recommend for people to share their thought leadership to be

able to have

a greater impact?

[00:42:07] Andrea Sampson: You're 100 percent

that

look, we live in a world where there's more opportunity to share

our ideas than

ever before. Whether it is,

Using social media as

platform,

whether it's being

podcast

guest,

it's being a podcast host, like these are things that

we think 20 years ago, they didn't exist,

right?

We didn't have

these abilities. And the challenge now is the competition for

our attention,

 There's so

much competition for our attention. So the first thing

is stand for something.

Number one, right? Make sure that you are standing for something. What is your core thought leadership idea?

What is it that you

stand for?

And it actually doesn't really matter how different it

is. It's

going to be

different because it's you

quite frankly.

Again, this is the 80 percent rule, get it mostly right. But then start talking about it

 So stand for something

is number one. Number two is start saying it out loud.

Find communities where you

can

say it out loud. That's really key

because you need to

hear yourself saying your own thought leadership. You need to hear

yourself

Again and again.

Why? Because it'll refine. It'll change a

little

bit.

It will get

more and more clear for you and

it will get more and more clear

others.

Others will question

you on it. So find a community where you feel safe.

We're not even at the point yet of being amplified. First

define

it, secondly refine it. Once you've defined

and refined, then

start going out to

places that, You can be heard. So it might be your own social channels, create opportunities.

Now,

what you're doing is you're saying

it,

but also build

your community really

important,

 Thought leaders   first. They're an

expert communicator. That's number one. That is the front door of thought leadership.

Number two,

they

have personal brands that are based in values and that align to their core thought leadership. So make sure you've got a personal brand.

Number three,

you need a community. Who supports and amplifies your

personal brand and your core thought leadership message. So number one, what is your core thought

leadership? Define and refine

it. Number two, who

are you? What do

you stand for? Build

your personal brand in

such a way that now it

is differentiated because it's you.

The number three, build the communities around

you who support and amplify you. Your job

isn't necessarily to go out and be the one that is being

heard. You just have to

 Keep speaking. Others will make you be

heard. Trust that. That's a really important part of it.

And

so the more you talk and the more you stand for something, the more people who will rally around you and they will amplify you.

But

don't stop talking along the way. You gotta keep talking.

[00:45:04] Mahan Tavakoli: What a beautiful

challenge to everyone

listening. And as I was sharing with you in our

conversation, Andrea, I have gone

deep and love and and the impact it's going to have, including generative AI on all aspects of how

we do our work.

However,

the good news part

of it is, AI cannot

do what you just said, . That is truly

human,

that

is differentiated, that is community.

That is everything that

can stand out

in a world that I

believe will become a heck

of a lot more noisy because

of the average of averages that will be created instantaneously through ai.

Absolutely. 

 AI,   it is

[00:45:55] Andrea Sampson: such

a fantastic tool.

 We all use

it and we should, because what AI is doing for us,

it

is taking the genius that each of us brings to our abilities, and it helps us get there faster,

 It learns about us. It works

with us. It is a tool. It is not

the end, it is the means.

And so

you as the thought

leader are

the one who is

thinking the thoughts.

All

AI is

doing is helping you 

refine it

quicker. You still got to say it, you still got to go out,

And that's the thing. I work with so many different

people who are doing interesting work.

I'm working

with a scientist

right now

who's in

process of looking

at

the, building consciousness into AI. And it's a, Fascinating conversation,

but we are a long ways away

from that. Don't worry about those things it's not going to become conscious and steal your idea.

That's not

going to happen. It's there to help you

[00:46:51] Mahan Tavakoli: it is. And I appreciate the

insights that you shared because

do

believe they help differentiate

whether it is as

a leader, as you're communicating, using stories as a vehicle to carry your thought across as a brand aligning around an

emotion and the 80 percent that it takes

that is good enough. For you to own that emotion

and that experience with your

stakeholders, clients,

and also the responsibility we all have for thought leadership. If we want to

see change, and there

a

lot of change, all of us want to see in the world, as

mentioned,

otherwise listeners wouldn't be listening.

to this podcast and looking to learn from you.

So if we want that change, we are thought leaders, speak

it. Repeat it,

find a community that is willing to listen to it and magnify it.

Love those thoughts and perspectives.

So Andrea,

how can the audience follow more of

your writing and work as well?

[00:48:08] Andrea Sampson: Oh thanks so much for that. And thank you. This has

been fantastic, you ask amazing questions. Thank you.

In

terms of keeping in touch 

you can check out

our website at

talkboutique. com. Follow me on LinkedIn. I'm very active

on LinkedIn. I post A thought of

the day every day.

It's

live video.

Every couple of

weeks I do conversations with

thought leaders where I interview interesting

people. And you can

also

find out about our Thought Leader Academy on my LinkedIn profile. There's

lots of links there. We're always have lots

going on and we're always

have lots of.

Of

resources and

for you

to get access to Without any cost, it's there for you. Those are the places you can find me. 

[00:48:51] Mahan Tavakoli: Outstanding. I really appreciate that, Andrea. And your commitment

to making storytelling help us

with the transformative

power it

has as

executives, as thought

leaders, and in our

organizations as well. Thank you so much

for the conversation and

your insights, Andrea Sampson.

[00:49:14] Andrea Sampson: Thank you so much, 

I really

appreciate it.