387 You Can’t Outsmart AI—But You Can Out-Human It: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World with Mark Schaefer

***DISCLAIMER: Please note that the following AI-generated transcript may not be 100% accurate and could contain misspellings or errors.***

[00:00:00] 

Mahan Tavakoli: Mark Schaefer, welcome back to partnering leadership. I am thrilled to have you in this conversation with me. 

Mark Schaefer: It's nice to see you again and looking forward to a fun conversation. 

Mahan Tavakoli: Mark, we had an outstanding conversation for episode 271 focused on community as the last great marketing strategy. I mentioned it, then mentioned it again, whether it's marketing rebellion, known your books, your insights have been pivotal to thinking of many, including mine.

So I'm curious though. You're taking slightly different approach with audacious. You're being audacious with audacious. What got you to do that? 

Mark Schaefer: Again, it's just so great to see you and feel honored to be here. It might seem like this book is different, but there is one commonality in these books, and that is, [00:01:00] I look at the world and I see a problem that people are struggling with, and I hear it all over, I'm so fortunate in my Life.

I get to go all over the world and meet business leaders of, big companies and solopreneurs and startups. And of course, problem that everyone is wrestling with today is where do we fit? In a world dominated by AI, and if you're not wrestling with that problem, you're not in the world enough.

I would encourage you to spend some time every day experimenting with chat GPT or something like that, or, and reading about where the world is going, because there's certainly profound, consequences, perhaps more profound than any we have faced from any technology in the past. And so the thing that's unusual about this Period.

[00:02:00] And unique, as I struggle to think about this, and I've thought about it a lot, is that this is the first time in our history we've faced some technology and we haven't been able to take a class or get a new degree to adapt. We can't be smarter than artificial intelligence. And wow, right?

Intelligence is the commodity here. It's not power, it's not electricity, it's not heat, it's not food, it's intelligence. And so as I thought about this, and was really realistic about what I think we can expect over the next few years, I just couldn't sugarcoat this and say everything's going to be okay.

I had to really think about what is uniquely human. What, where are the places we [00:03:00] can exist and thrive? And this journey was an exciting one for me because I got to meet some of the greatest creative minds in the world. People that have won Oscars and Emmys and Cannes Lions awards. And there, it was just very energizing, very inspiring.

And all these people agreed. to share their secrets for this new book. And so that's how we got there. That's what's different about this book. And that's, what's the same about this book. 

Mahan Tavakoli: What I love about both the book and your approach, Mark, even though the insights. Definitely relates to marketing.

I think your approach and your thinking is a lot deeper than that. And it's one of the elements that I find many people haven't gotten about the commodification of intelligence and the shift that will require in all aspects of our [00:04:00] lives and knowledge work, including in marketing. 

Mark Schaefer: Just think about our companies and think about the organizations we're familiar with.

They're organized based on units of intelligence. So you might have an HR director, an R& D director, a finance team. And so these people have special knowledge, special intelligence, and as they gain more intelligence, they become more valuable and they become promoted. We're entering this world where in, we're going to have access to abundant, almost free intelligence.

So the value, really the economic value of intelligence is zero. Now I know that sounds really weird. But if you think [00:05:00] about, the richest person you can think of in your city, and I have access to the same AI that person does. for 20 a month and we're going to create these functions that are going to be very capable, very specific for accounting or HR marketing or whatever.

And that's why I said we can't really outsmart this. We have to out human it in some way. So there's vast economic consequences. There's vast consequences for. Humanity, I think. So this book is just like one little piece of that. One little piece of that for my marketing world. 

Mahan Tavakoli: So you mentioned that need for us to out human it's one of the.

Concerns that I have and questions is what does out human it mean? I don't know if you've had a chance to play with Sesame or not. It's a new version of [00:06:00] Hume had done this emotional conversational AI voice chat, and I played around with it last night with my family, with my girls and wife sitting at the table and their jaws were on the table because they felt.

If they had talked to. Whoever was on the other end, they would have said, this is human. This is a human and has emotions or is expressing emotions. So what does out humaning AI mean? 

Mark Schaefer: Yeah. And I also want to acknowledge, I think it was just last week or maybe two weeks ago, there was research that came out that showed that Patients preferred the approach and empathy of an AI bot in, in therapy.

And what we can do is train these systems to be the best, to be the best [00:07:00] therapist, the best customer service person, and they never get tired, and they never get irritable, and they always know just the right thing to say because it is based on patterns of responses. So I think you're absolutely right and that was one of the challenges is, like I wrote, I finished the book, I don't know, maybe nine months ago or something.

So I had to think about not just where it is and that's the problem we have with a lot of people talking about AI today and they dismiss the possibilities of AI. Because they just look at where it is now, but it's moving so fast, it's going to move even faster. So I had to think every stupid thing we see it doing today is going to be gone in a few months.

So what does this really mean? So when I talk about out humaning it, thinking about what are the aspects of marketing that truly Only we can do. So let me give you an example. I [00:08:00] think one of the breakthrough ideas that I'm proud of in the book is this idea of awe. The awe that you get when you bring people together.

Now think about our world today. We have people who, just about everyone can consume all the media in the world through their earbuds by themselves. You don't have to leave your room. You can binge your favorite movies and TV shows and music and just love your favorite performers.

That nobody has ever even heard of before. Now, when I was young and I'm not going to challenge you on, what your age is, but maybe you'll remember some of these things. When I was young, you would save your money for a record album, or maybe for you, it was a CD or something. And then.

When you cut that record album, you would, your friends would come over, and they'd want to hear it, and you'd listen to it, [00:09:00] and maybe you'd sing along, and you'd dance, and you'd have food, and it was a communal experience. It was a shared experience. Same with even movies. Before Netflix.

Even before Blockbuster. You'd find someone that had a car. You'd pile in the car, you'd see the movie, and then afterwards You'd go have pizza and you talk about the movie. So today we don't have those shared experiences. Now, why is this important and what's the connection to to, to business? So think about.

enjoying your favorite musician through your earbuds versus going with friends to a concert. And at the concert, you're singing and you're happy and you feel this awe, being with other people, even though it's the same song. And that is called collective effervescence. It's this emotional contagion that occurs when [00:10:00] we're You know, thinking with other people, commuting with other people, experiencing art and nature with other people in this special way.

Now, How can we apply that to our business? How can we apply that to our marketing? What would our business look like? What would our marketing look like if the goal is we're going to add more awe? If we had ways to bring people together, in community through an experiential marketing, activation, even just some event in our town, AI can't do that.

AI can't touch that. So here, what is what's brand marketing about? It's creating an emotional expectation between you and your customers or potential customers. And the strongest way to do that is to bring. People together. And if it's like some sort of [00:11:00] immersive experiences, they're not just hearing about it.

They're living it. They're part of it. And that's an example of something I have in the book that, this is something thing. AI can't touch it. I cannot imagine a reality where AI would control this. It can help us brainstorm. I have a chapter talking about how can we use AI to be more audacious.

I'm not anti ai. I'm, I use it every single day, almost every single hour. But, let's think about our relevance and our careers, and let's think about where are we going to fit. 

Mahan Tavakoli: That's such a beautiful example, Mark, for so many different reasons. First of all, it builds off of what you have been a big advocate of, which is that sense of community.

In many parts of the world, most especially in the U. S. Part because of what you mentioned [00:12:00] in terms of us isolating ourselves from others, there is greater loneliness. There is greater disconnection. So there is tremendous power in that experience of all in bringing people together. 

However, one of the things I find interesting is that what you are advocating and talking about is not where a lot of marketers have gone. They've gone to what you talk about, that average being invisible. , I don't think there's a day that goes by. That I don't get an email saying that they can create hundreds of SEO optimized blog posts.

I'm not sure what the heck these will say. You just give them keywords and you just create tons and tons of it. And you see this, whether it's on social media or content creation. So what you're talking about takes effort and is a challenge and runs counter to what is happening with a [00:13:00] lot of AI use.

Mark Schaefer: Marketing is hard. I've been in the field for let's say several decades. And I think I can say with some authority that marketing is harder than ever. It's just, it's harder than ever. Gaining awareness is hard. Gaining trust is hard. Filling the pipeline is hard.

It's hard. Really hard work. So let's just say, mark, whatever you do is going to be hard. Now, it's really intoxicating to as you said, sign up to these AI systems that just will just fill the world with fluff. And someone told me the other day using AI in your marketing is like bringing Yeah.

Store bought cookies to a bake sale, , it's not exactly what you want. Prob, it looks like a cookie. It tastes like a cookie, but it's not [00:14:00] really what you want. You want a little chunkiness, you want it, you want a little imperfection. You wanna know that this really came out of somebody's kitchen.

And I think that's one of the themes in the book too, that I think is so captivating. There's this, one of my favorite stories comes from a fellow named Michael Kravicka. And I call him the king of viral video. And Michael I've been around a long time. And Michael Kravicka has the keenest sense of storytelling of any person I've ever met.

He just has this sixth sense. And one of the things he told me, he said, lots of people try to copy what I do. But they just can't. And they just never will. You know why? Because they're trying to be perfect. He said, my videos, it feels like you're there. Maybe it's a little out of [00:15:00] focus.

Maybe we just left the audio a little bit But we leave the mistakes in there so that people know this is real. We don't use AI. This is just everything we do. We want real, true, authentic human reactions. We want people to feel like they are there experiencing this. brand experience right along with the people in the video.

And that was a theme I heard everywhere I went is that there's a real desire for something that feels real that we can trust. And again, that's, This unique human element, we don't, we don't want it perfect. We don't want it like Hollywood CGI or something like that.

 I think that the things that we love most in our life are a little bit dinged up.

There was a brilliant commercial for a [00:16:00] truck and it shows this person ain't got the new truck and then you get the ding in it and then the kids spill something on it and then you look through the life of the truck and this is my life, it's better if it's a little.

A little dinged up like me. Maybe that's why I'm so popular. Cause I've been so dinged up. 

Mahan Tavakoli: , you're a popular mark because of what I was mentioning to you before we started, you were living a few years ahead of. The rest of the world, and especially the rest of the marketing world. So you're telling us what the future is going to be like.

I interact with lots of CEOs, executives in organizations, there is such a flood of change and uncertainty and things coming at them where. Many of them haven't taken the time to reflect on where [00:17:00] things are headed the way you have, which is why it's really relevant to listen to you, read your book and understand where things are headed.

And I believe a lot faster than many assume. 

Mark Schaefer: Yes, it's a conundrum in a way, because one of the things I've learned in my life is that, you see a new technology, and it's there, and it's ready, and you think, wow, this is ready to go. And when is it implemented? Three years. This is Schaeffer's Law.

You think about, okay, how long? Do I think it's going to take for people to adopt this and then multiply it by three? Because technology changes quickly, but culture changes slowly, and people change slowly. Now there is this aspect where this technology, can be so radical that there could be this danger that if people don't adopt it [00:18:00] quickly, they could be left behind from a competitive standpoint.

It'll be interesting, for example, to see on customer service, where it's just a slam dunk. It's just a slam dunk. And if you say any company seeing what AI can do with customer service boy, they're going to implement it in a year. And if you and I are talking a year from now, and I hope we are, and the technology is still behind.

I think that would be proof that yeah, I'll give you another example about, I think it was around 2018, 2019, I'd say it's 2019, right before the pandemic, I went to this conference and saw a demonstration of. artificial intelligence that had written a movie script. Now, AI has been a lot around a long time, we just know it because it was put in this package that's as easy to [00:19:00] use as Google, but it's been around a long time.

People have been using it in different ways. So it had written a movie script that was like fantasy, like the Hobbit. So I'm talking to these people from Hollywood and they had this script. And I said, wow, I just couldn't believe it how good it was because in a way, stories are patterns and there's a template for the best stories and the sort of the tension, then the relief of tension in a story.

This was great. I said, why aren't you using this? He said the world's just not ready. He said the world is just not ready. The culture of Hollywood is not ready. The labor unions aren't ready. The, we just can't. It's just not ready. And, I would say AI is probably being used somehow in Hollywood in terms of script, but not like what I saw in [00:20:00] 2019.

Again, it might seem like it's right here. Culture doesn't. Move that fast. 

Mahan Tavakoli: , when you are fully immersed in these things, you just can't understand why people aren't changing the way they are working or marketing, and as you said, it takes. A little longer for things to catch up. 

Mark Schaefer: And you mentioned, in your experience with many business leaders, they're embroiled in the day to day, haven't really, absorbed a view of this.

And to me, I experienced the same thing. And it's just, it's shocking. The I gave a talk to, three or 4, 000 people at a big conference a few weeks ago and ask them, how many people are using a I every week. And out of these thousands of people, maybe 200 raised their hand.

And these are all business owners and entrepreneurs and executives with big [00:21:00] companies. And Look, if I can open a little window for people and, let them know what's happening. And, I don't have an agenda. I'm not selling services on all this. I'm just trying to tell the truth and help people navigate what's coming next.

Mahan Tavakoli: And in doing that, you talk a lot about the need for fearless creativity. What is it? And how can we become more fearlessly creative? 

Mark Schaefer: Boy, that's a wonderful question, because a part of my exploration in this book it starts with some very Thank you. interesting and rather stunning statistics about how dull the world is.

, in summary, these researchers showed that about two thirds of marketing and advertising in B2B and B2C has no emotional connection with [00:22:00] their audience whatsoever. It's a complete. Waste of money 

Mahan Tavakoli: And the hilarious thing to me about that is that it's millions of dollars that are spent with smart people sitting around tables or doing whatever they do to come up with that.

Mark Schaefer: If there was a CEO of the whole ad industry, they'd be fired. They'd be fired in a minute. This is horrible. This is horrible. And I think the piece de resistance for that whole story is that these researchers were so aghast. And how bad the world was in advertising.

They thought of the most boring thing they could think of. A cow eating grass created a video of a cow eating grass, put it through the same test and found that played just as well as most. B2B and B2C advertising. Then they did another one of paint drying.[00:23:00] 

Because they just, they said cow eating grass. It's just not boring enough. It's a great illustration and a great story. But, then the next question is, how can this be? How can this be? And it gets right to the point you just made. Fear. It's fear. There's this infrastructure of fear holding boring in place.

It's the fear of, rocking the boat. It's the fear of criticism. It's the fear of upsetting your customer. It's the fear of losing a client, it's the fear of maybe, losing your job. It's the fear of not getting this approved by the legal department. I just don't want that fight again.

And so boring is easy, and boring has been normalized in many industries. I was thinking about this today, and you think about how many industries, just all the ads [00:24:00] just seem the same. And it's this, and so it's just like cars, pizza, what's the most radical thing and pizza, no one out pizzas, the hut, what does that mean?

And, like kids love pizza. They're ready to be disrupted. They're ready for something crazy. And so it's just gosh there's such an opportunity here for just someone to do something different. And I have some examples of that in the book. But yeah, , we're just living in this pandemic of dull.

We're just surrounded by it and AI is making it worse. 

Mahan Tavakoli: That pandemic of dull might have gotten by half a dozen years ago, might barely be getting by now, but it won't as the amount of content that average problem that is put out is drastically increasing. Therefore doing what you talk about, that fearless [00:25:00] creativity becomes more important to stand out in a world full of a ton of noise.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, there's a chapter near the end of the book that I called the most important chapter in the book. And the reason I called it that is because, now you're almost through the whole book and at this point, I've been saying, we need to be bold. We need to take risks. Here are some formulas.

Here are some examples of how we can be disruptive. And by the end of the book, you're thinking, Okay, he's right. I understand. But how do I do this without losing my job? And that's what that chapter is about, where I interview people who are living in that world, who are leading this world, who have survived.

By taking risks to move their careers ahead, and it's not easy and it was probably not for everyone, you just competent doesn't cut it. AI is [00:26:00] competent. That's your competition. That's who's coming after your next job, not some person out of college.

And, if you're competent, you're vulnerable. If you're competent, you're ignorable. If you're competent, you're going to be replaced. And so that's why, I have this real sense of urgency for people to, embrace this book. And another piece of this that you and I have talked a little bit about before is personal brand.

As a key to remaining relevant, another piece a, I can't touch community. We talked about that in our last discussion together. So all these pieces fit together. They do. . 

Mahan Tavakoli: I actually first got to know you through your book known, which is outstanding.

And then read a couple of the other books, Mark. So I wonder how you see AI impacting that personal brand that you just talked about in this world full of noise, full of averages that is produced by [00:27:00] AI. I imagine the need for the personal brand becomes even more important, but it's hard. 

Mark Schaefer: You're exactly right.

And this is my favorite story that illustrates again, just, the power and the urgency, I'm going to give a lecture at a college class tomorrow and, I'm just going to shout this from the rooftops. So the story goes, when chat GPT came out I was amazed and I immediately saw.

the disruptive potential of this technology. And I had the opportunity to call a friend of mine, Shelly Palmer. Shelly's a famous tech analyst in New York. I said, Shelly, what do you think? He said, I just, I can't believe it. He said, I'm terrified. He said, I have blogged almost every day for 15 years and I asked chat GPT to create a blog post about the congressional pressure [00:28:00] that Facebook is facing and I wanted the blog post in my voice and it created a perfect blog post in three seconds.

He said, I am 80 percent replaced. Now on the surface. That does seem terrifying, but the more important question is what's that 20 percent that's not replaced? And that is his personal brand. Shelly has nothing to worry about because he's done the work. He's known, he's beloved, he's trusted. And no matter what.

What happens in this world, we will always want to turn to a human being and say, what do you think, especially in this world of misinformation and deep fakes. We have to know who can we turn to. And on all of my blog posts now, I have this badge that says 100 percent human content [00:29:00] because I want to assure people that this is me.

It's really me. And it's always going to be me. And you can count on that. And I feel the same way. People, here we are in this AI world and there's all this AI content, but subscriptions to my blog have gone up and engagement to my blog has gone up and my book sales have gone up because people still want a human being in the mix.

And that is it's more important than ever that the 10th anniversary, believe it or not, of Known is coming up and yeah, I the process of the book is solid. I really wouldn't change a thing. But I've done, I've taught a lot of classes. I've done a lot of coaching. Now we're in this world of AI.

I think I'm going to do a new edition of the book. I think that's going to be my next project. But the big idea is the sense of urgency, just the sense of urgency. And then the other. The other side of the coin is there [00:30:00] are ways we can use a I to help us find their personal brand to help us think about it to help us assess what we love and our talents and really get to a place to figure out where do I fit in this big mix.

Mahan Tavakoli: . I wanted to connect a couple of points that you've made there, Mark, in that whether it's Shelley Palmer, and I love his writing as well, or Mark Schaefer, people say you are already known, therefore. You can ride that wave. What I would say is for those who are not known, it therefore becomes even more important to be fearlessly creative.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah, 

Mahan Tavakoli: because , 10 years ago, by just putting content out, writing a blog post, having thoughts that you shared, you could. With consistency become known. Now, those averages are going to be [00:31:00] created instantaneously through AI by a lot of people, just automatically, therefore to become known, you need to do what Mark talks about in this book.

You need to be audacious and fearlessly creative. 

Mark Schaefer: And I'll add one other thing to I think, encourage people. One of the things I've been thinking a lot about I honestly, maybe you can remind me. I can't remember if I put this in the book or not. Cause the book just came out. Things that we cherish the most have some human connection to it.

Maybe it's a card that our child, I got a drawer here full of stuff. My children made me right. Maybe it's a piece of furniture handed down by relatives or a photo album or something. And art. Is the interpretation of the human experience. Now we have AI doing art. We just had this humanoid robotic create an oil painting that just sold for [00:32:00] 1.

6 million. That was a little depressing but, and look. AI is going to be able to simulate that where we can still add value is only we have the human experience. So you're right. We need to be work to be relentlessly relevant and we need to work on community and we need to work on our personal brand and we need to be fearlessly creative, but we also need to have the courage to add our story.

To our content to our business to our narrative because there's only one you there's only one you that's had your Experience and it's not easy for me to do that I grew up in a very stoic family where you do not, big boys don't cry and you don't show your feelings and it's nobody's business and it took me decades to Unravel that [00:33:00] and just you know, take a little risk and Talk about what's going on in my life and I found that every time I did I was rewarded because people would say, wow, I was just worried about that today.

Wow, that happened to you too? Wow, I feel like a new understanding with you, a new connection with you is oh, really? Maybe I need to do more of that. And that's part of my uniqueness. It's not just my view of the world, but it's also, I have the courage to say in a blog post, I'm worried.

I said that this week. I'm, writing about where A's eyes go, it's who's leading this? Where is, who's shepherding us into this new future? I'm worried about this. And just being a little bit vulnerable, or you're writing a, doing a video and say, This just happened to me and I'm upset or this just happened to me and I, oh my [00:34:00] gosh, I just feel so much joy right now.

It's, it takes courage to do that, but that's also part of the story. That's also part of this formula to win out. In the AI world. 

Mahan Tavakoli: So in being able to do that, Mark, , it requires a level of authenticity and willingness to share your humanity and your story that helps you differentiate and set yourself aside.

Now, as far as brands are concerned, you challenge the traditional narrative platform, storyteller. Format, how should brands rethink each one of these? 

Mark Schaefer: Some of them are starting to get it. And a lot of it depends on their advertising agency partner, I think in this world, small to medium sized businesses probably have [00:35:00] an advantage.

And there's a story in the book that I think is true. And profound. And it's, I gave this presentation to a huge consumer product company and they said, Mark, we get it. And, we need to have brand communities. And the real power is when our customers share our stories, but when our customers share our stories.

How do we control that? Okay. And of course you can't, and you haven't been able to do that for 10 years, welcome to 2005, my friend. And but it's this is part of the scaffolding, the infrastructure that's holding boring in place. It's holding the old ways in place that We, the biggest brands have a global advertising contract.

And so any idea they have, anything they want to do has to go to the advertising agency. So it has to be delegated to an advertising agency. Now, to the extent. That the advertising agency [00:36:00] is fearless and not afraid of, making people upset. Then, that's maybe the kind of content they're going to get.

So we do see examples. I think one of the boldest, most interesting examples that I mentioned in the book is this Nutter Butter cookie, right? I think it's number six or seven in terms of brand. It's a nice cookie. It tastes good, but it has no brand meaning. They had nothing to lose.

They're completely ignorable and nothing to lose. So they started creating these videos on TikTok that are like an acid trip. They are really horrifying. And it's just, it's like utter chaos. And once in a while the cookie will actually make an appearance, but and you think this, how is this coherent and yet their sales have quadrupled and because they've reached above the [00:37:00] noise and they've created awareness and they've created a conversation and the whole, these videos, it's like a mystery to unravel.

There's Reddit groups dedicated to these videos. to try to figure out who are these characters. So in a way they've included the customers in the storytelling. They're letting the customer paint the rest of the story, even there's, there were some examples when like customers.

commented on the videos that the customer was like included in their next video. And so it's completely bonkers and yet, it's disrupting a story. So I think that's the part where advertisers I think can excel. Of the three different sections of the book. The next section of the book is disrupting where the story is told.

And again, one of the ideas in the book or one of the, I'd say probably one of the [00:38:00] rants in the book is that, oh my gosh, we just keep doing the same thing in the same places over and over again, and it's just like everything is flat. We went from posters to newspapers to magazines to, to, iPads.

And yet we've got all this opportunity and all this technology to do stuff in the three dimensional real world. So that's the second opportunity. And then the third opportunity, which is completely foreign to the advertising world, is disrupting the storyteller because nobody believes ads. Nobody believes.

Big companies, but we believe each other. And so the marketing mindset today, isn't beating your chest and saying, we're so great. It's doing something so interesting, so worthy, so unmissable that your [00:39:00] customers can't wait to share the story. Your customers are your best marketers. So how do we help them tell the story and that and.

This is the great enigma of our time. Think about this, word of mouth marketing, it's been around forever. It's the purest, most trusted form of marketing. AI can't touch it. It's us. We own it. We know it works. We know it's powerful. And I don't know one company that has a line item on their budget for word of mouth marketing.

Best marketing in the world, ignored. 

Mahan Tavakoli: This is why, Mark, as much as I love Audacious, I think it's a one two punch, with your last book , talking about community. In that, this is a continuation of what you have been talking about. [00:40:00] The way to market requires very different mindsets, very different approaches in engaging with the community, in giving up the control, and then the kind of fearless creativity that you can Enable your community to run with rather than needing to centrally control.

So it requires very different mindsets as well as approaches to marketing. 

Mark Schaefer: Yes, it does. And you're right. And I'm so grateful that you realize this, that you connected the dots that, really, if you read my books in order, it's like an unveiling of my mind. And if you go all the way back.

To marketing rebellion. This was like the wake up call to say it doesn't work this way anymore. Wake up, look at how consumers are really absorbing content. Think about their expectations of you. [00:41:00] They don't want to be disturbed. They want to be left alone. They don't want to be interrupted and spammed. If you're doing things that customers hate, stop it!

Let's double down on what people customers love. Now, in that book, I had a chapter about community. And it, and then, after I wrote that book, I thought, you know what? That's the most powerful chapter in the book. That, I've got to, I've got to extend that idea. Guess what else is in that book?

A chapter on experiential marketing, bringing people together, and word of mouth. So it's okay, this stuff is building, it's building. And now with AI, it's, I was right. It was, it's even, it's going faster. We need to have even more urgency. Yeah, you're exactly right.

You're exactly right. , all the dots connect and it's like an explosion of my thinking over time. 

Mahan Tavakoli: , I love being part of Mark Schaeffer's mind map [00:42:00] and going to each one of the bubbles and learning and then coming back to a different  bubble. Now you have also used AI.

In the human content that you're putting out. I love  the cover. You have every changing AI cover. So it's not that you are staying away from AI. You are doubling up on your humanity and using AI to. Magnify that. 

Mark Schaefer: , so the main elements of the book is disrupt, how you tell a story, disrupt where you tell a story and disrupt who tells a story.

Now this book, it's the first of its kind in the world. There's a QR code on the cover. The book is telling you the story. I'm disrupting the story. I'm disrupting where [00:43:00] it's told. I'm disrupting who's telling it, all in one QR code. And the QR code, what happens is we uploaded the book to AI, and then we uploaded some sample art to AI.

We said, create abstract art. In this style based on the stories in the book. And so you don't really know what you're going to get. And in fact I haven't really talked about this. We're actually updating this every week. There's like more. Stories. If you look at it this week, there's going to be even new stuff, next week.

And it's been a big hit. And the thing that's been fun is they said, Oh my God, this book and my kids are playing with it. That's cool to think, kids are playing with a business book. But why not? And then inside the book. There's like a puzzle and there's QR codes that lead you to some really fun examples.

And there's even a few little Easter eggs [00:44:00] in there that, are surprises. So the whole book is like audacious. I was under a lot of pressure, my friend, because when you write a book called audacious, it better be audacious. And , I think we delivered, 

Mahan Tavakoli: you did, and it is audacious because you have captured both the human element, that fearless creativity, as well as used AI in a way that focuses in on that humanity.

So it's a great marriage of the two rather than running. Totally in one direction or another. It's an augmentation of your insights. 

Mark Schaefer: Yeah. , and there is a chapter in the book talking about that, talking about, it would be crime to ignore the opportunities.

We live in a world of magic. We live in a world of magic. It's accessible to everyone for free or a little bit of money. So why wouldn't we use magic? To make our lives better, to make our [00:45:00] families better, to make our communities better, and to make our content better, and to make our books better.

, we're still steering the ship. But, AI can help us be more audacious. 

Mahan Tavakoli: Now, in doing that, I would love to jump ahead a little bit. Mark if we fast forward three, four years from now and the.

Organizations, some have gotten branding, right? Some people have gotten becoming known and their personal brand, right? As a result of having listened to Mark, what will be happening differently in marketing brands and individuals? 

Mark Schaefer: I think there's going to be a really interesting new demographic divide.

So today, when we think about our customers, we might consider. Their age and their income and their education and where they live and, other different [00:46:00] sort of demographic ideas and that goes into where we connect with them and how we connect with them and the words that we say and in, when you look at the next stages of AI, it will require an AI human cooperation for AI to do the best for you to be like a cognitive partner.

You're gonna have to give it everything. You're gonna have to, okay, whatever my AI partner is called, make a travel reservation. Okay. It's going to need to know your preferences and your credit card. And your passport and on. I don't know if I'm ready to do that.

In fact, I know I'm not ready to do that, but other people are. So there's going to be this demographic [00:47:00] divide of the people that are all in. There's no halfway either. You are all in and. You take a risk, but you're also going to have a lot of significant enhancements in your world and in your life, or you say, no way, I'm out and I'm going to maybe tend toward nature and escaping this kind of world.

Now, what's the percentage going to be? I don't know, but there is going to be this divide. There's going to be, and like I said, there's no. There's no middle ground really other than AI is if you use, Spotify That's AI if you use Google Maps, that's AI AI is going to be around us whether we want to or not, but in terms of this ultimate new reality you gotta commit [00:48:00] and some of my friends Say, Oh yeah, I'm all in.

Some of my friends say no way. And that's an interesting conversation. Because that's going to be this new divide that's never really existed in in, in history. And that will require entirely new ways of marketing communication and connection. 

Mahan Tavakoli: What an interesting thought. I was thinking as you were talking about it, this could even be a futuristic novel that at some point, yeah, visits and writes.

Mark Schaefer: So where are you? Are you all in or no way? 

Mahan Tavakoli: I am all. In, but scared . So I love you've all know Harari's thinking and thoughts on this as on this . He talks about how, when the AI gets to know us better than we know ourselves, we can very easily [00:49:00] be manipulated now on the other end.

. There are things that I am doing in my work that I would not be able to do four years ago without AI. So I am all in, but I am very concerned with some of the privacy issues and.

At what point I lose control over my own decision making because an AI that knows my emotions better than I do can very easily guide me to make decisions that Is benefiting whoever is driving that AI rather than me. 

Mark Schaefer: Yeah. If you're nervous about AI at all, do not listen to Harari.  

He's great, I love him. I love him as a writer and as a thinker and as a historian, , I try to watch almost every interview [00:50:00] that he does. And he said that, AI. is the next species. And he just said it matter of factly. And the interviewer said, what do you mean? And he said whenever you have a competitive species that's smarter than you, that is stronger than you, because this will become part of humanoid robots and has a tendency toward aggression.

Cause we're teaching them all our war secrets. It doesn't work out well for the other species.

So I just turned it off. 

Mahan Tavakoli:  That's why I love your insights, Mark, first of all. You have a hopeful, not naive optimism. I appreciate your writing, read your blog posts. It's not naive optimism that everything's going to be perfect. It all works out. [00:51:00] And it's also not this doom and gloom of the world is about to end 

Mark Schaefer: your 

Mahan Tavakoli: hopeful.

Mark Schaefer: Yeah. 

Mahan Tavakoli: Also inform yourself and your audience on some of the decisions we need to make along the way as we start embracing AI. 

Mark Schaefer: That means a lot to me. I appreciate it because , when I was in the corporate world, I had this business unit president that I really looked up to, he kept a spotlessly clean desk except for one little sign.

And it said, Leaders Dispense Hope. And I realized that people look up to me. I'm so blessed that I have this platform that people listen to me and trust me. And that is a challenge. It's like when things look bleak or scary, , you don't want to lie and you don't want to sugarcoat things, but how do you tease out hope?

That is exactly what I try to do with this new [00:52:00] book. So that is a great compliment and a great insight. So thank you. 

Mahan Tavakoli: You do a beautiful job with it in all of your content, Mark. How can the audience find out more about your book, Audacious, follow your writing and your work? 

Mark Schaefer: Again, thanks so much for having me.

This was so much fun. And you don't have to remember my name or how to spell it. You just have to remember businesses grow. You can remember businesses grow. You can find the blog that we've been talking about my podcast and all the books that we mentioned today, including this new one called audacious.

, how humans win in an AI marketing world. 

Mahan Tavakoli: Mark Schaefer, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your insights and the example you're setting. With your own content and reinventing yourself.

I so appreciate you joining in this conversation. Thank you so much, Mark Schaefer. 

Mark Schaefer: Thank [00:53:00] you.