***DISCLAIMER: Please note that the following AI-generated transcript may not be 100% accurate and could contain misspellings or errors.***

Mahan Tavakoli: . [00:00:00] Mito Malik, welcome to Partnering Leadership. I am thrilled to have you in this conversation with me.

Mita Mallik: Thanks for having me here today. I am excited to talk to you.

Mahan Tavakoli: I can't wait to talk about the devil emails at midnight. What good leaders can learn from bad bosses. Before we get to that, Mita would love to know a little bit more about you, whereabouts you grew up, and how your upbringing has helped contribute to who you've become.

Mita Mallik: I start with the Marvel origin story, as we say in my house, and so I'm the proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents. I was born and raised in the US with my younger brother. of Boston and I grew up in a time and a place where it was not cool to be Indian. I'm sure some people can still identify with that feeling.

I always say I was the funny looking girl, dark skinned with the funny looking braid whose parents spoke funny English until it wasn't funny anymore. I was bullied a lot. Both verbally and physically by my peers. I was in a community where there was a [00:01:00] handful of families of color, maybe three, and I, they let me know every single day that I did not belong there and. That's been a driving force throughout my life. I did not expect that the bullies from the playground the classrooms would follow me into the halls of companies and conference rooms. I didn't realize they'd be in corporate America, that they had grown up. And so for me, that feeling of not belonging, and I think no matter who you are, wherever you were born or raised, wherever you are with us today, listening, you can relate to that.

And it's such a horrible feeling and exclusion is actually such a powerful force. And so that's really driven me my entire career, whether that's been as a marketing executive in terms of storytelling, whose stories get told and why, and then also thinking about how we can build great workplaces as an HR executive where everyone gets to thrive.

Mahan Tavakoli: What a powerful origin story, Mita. And we could go down. On so many different paths, whether the power of storytelling or the fact [00:02:00] that even reading your content, it shows that some of those early experiences have made you much more sensitive and aware to the influence you have on others 

Mita Mallik: people will often say to me, you have such empathy. You're such an empathetic leader. I was not, I don't believe born exceptionally empathetic. I believe I had a lot of. Crappy things happen to me as a child and adult, and I'm not any more or less special than anyone else. I just think that those things happened and they stayed with me, and I have just be, have a heightened awareness and I appreciate you saying that. sensitive about what's happening to others, or, I try to be, I'm not perfect at it, but I try to observe that. I think that's important. And one of the things I say is that. In order to really think about how you can show up as a more inclusive leader, as a better human, better individual, is that you have to get access to experiences that aren't your own. And so when I coach CEOs and [00:03:00] founders and they might say this sounds really political. This sounds woke. I can't talk about this. Sort of the tenor. happening in the US right now? If you're listening in the US and there's global ramifications and black Lives Matter, antisemitism, Islamophobia, anti L-G-B-T-Q legislation, xenophobia, I can go on and on about the hurt and harm, which is horrible that's happening around the world.

But if you knew anybody from any one of those communities and you had a relationship with them, you would never say that this was political. You would say, wow, my friend, my family member, my neighbor, teacher. Whoever they're in pain and I have some sort of responsibility to understand and to try to help.

You would never name that as politics, and so I really encourage people to just think about. You don't have to do 10. That's not that's what I'm saying. But one lived experience that you don't have access to, that you need to. And I'll be vulnerable and say, years ago I was born and raised in the US.

I didn't know anyone who's a veteran. How could I not know anything about what it's like to. Dedicate your [00:04:00] life to be in service of this country. Like that to me was like, was embarrassing. And this was like as an adult, and I remember going to one of our employee resource groups at the time at this large company and one of the heads of the veterans ERG said, I want to set you up with this nonprofit.

And this nonprofit actually helped transition veterans into corporate roles. And so I became a mentor. And did that for a number of years. And so that's what I ask people to think about is how can you start to gain empathy for something you haven't experienced? And that's by studying, listening, learning, reaching out and building a relationship that you wouldn't have normally done.

Mahan Tavakoli: Absolutely love that MI on so many different levels. First of all, as you mentioned, the core of it is empathy. And in addition to that, one of the things I also loved about reading your. Book is that you are not above it all. You are working on it through [00:05:00] self-reflection yourself, which is really important. As I was reading your book, I was reflecting on many of the leaders that I know who would read it and see other people they know that fit one of the 13 archetypes of,

Mita Mallik: sure.

Mahan Tavakoli: bad bosses. You talk about. But it's not us. So you are constantly working on it yourself, and you actually share your own story and the fact that sure, you have been a bad boss yourself too.

Mita Mallik: The opening line of the book is I've been a bad boss, and chances are, so have you, because there's so much. Writing in the marketplace, I've contributed it so much. Thought leadership. How do you survive the toxic workplace? How do you survive the bad boss? And this is the number one DM I get from people.

Someone will send me a heartfelt, long note about something horrible that's happening to in their workplace and your heart breaks. And then what do I do? And it's really, oh, what's the survival plan? What's the exit strategy? But why does it have to be [00:06:00] that way? Why is it that we're not talking to some of those people who are causing hurt and harm?

And you might say those people are in the headlines and they need to seek redemption elsewhere. Yeah, tho that's not, this book isn't for them, but it is for the rest of us who are trying to do better, be better. And so that's just so important. And for me, I'm 13, I'm the 13th boss. I don't nickname myself as I do with the other bosses, but. I lost my dad suddenly in 2017, and it changed the course of my life for anyone who's lost someone they love. Grief is long and heavy and I still grieve him. And I went back to the workplace and I remember being there for a week or so and the boss at the time saying to me, oh, thank God you got your mojo back. Thank God because no one wanted to see a sad meter. I had to smile. I had to pretend everything was okay. was a little bit like that, but I also had pressure on myself and I buried the grief. And you can't bury grief if you know this. If anyone who's experienced this, it's going to come back up. The [00:07:00] times you least expect it and it will be an explosion. And so it was, I became all of those things. I was the devil who emailed at midnight, right? I was the micromanager. I was the micromanager. I lost my temper. I yelled at people. All of those things that was happening. And it took somebody on my team who I really adored resigning under me.

And I'll never forget getting those exit interview notes. Listen, I hope exit interviews are still hap. Bid. I hope they're not canceled. If you do exit interviews, read them. And it was exactly, it was a mirror, right? The sign was there. It was a mirror up to me to say, you had been a really good leader and now you're a bad boss because of all these things that you're exhibiting. But also that I wasn't dealing with the grief.

Mahan Tavakoli: So  Mitta, you mentioned how you became aware of some of the bad practices or habits that you had developed, and you mentioned, for example, exit interviews. I find in most instances, , people. Don't wanna burn bridges.

Mita Mallik: Sure.

Mahan Tavakoli: a lot of times the feedback they give is, I got a better [00:08:00] salary.

The job is closer to my home, or whatever other excuse rather than you as my boss are the reason I am leaving. And even for people who are in those toxic environments, giving feedback is really hard. Therefore, the vast majority of managers, executives, they don't hear what. You were able to see in those exit interviews.

So what are some of the practices and things we can do in order to ensure that we reduce those blind spots and become aware of some of those opportunities for improvement?

Mita Mallik: So I'll give you a very different idea when it comes to exit interviews. I actually did this at one of my companies with the support of legal call someone six months after they have left. Now, isn't that interesting? Or a year, because to your point, I might be scared. There's a lot of emotion, whether it's good or bad when you leave a job. I don't feel safe to give you the real feedback. I will tell you, we called people six months to a year later, [00:09:00] and the things we found out were so amazing, mostly fact-based. The emotion was out of it, could say, are the things Mita needs to work on, versus, she's a terrifying toxic bully who does blah, blah, blah.

And then the person. Trying to process this only hears that and doesn't hear any of the facts. They hear all the emotion, right? And so that is one thing that people should consider doing if they really wanna change the behaviors of their culture. 360 reviews are always great. It's not great when I've had a boss who has then tried to pinpoint who said what. That doesn't work either. That he would be like, it's it's. Anonymous, but not confidential. You're like, what the, like what? So no one again, like to that, to this day. I never do 360 reviews the way I should because this person hunted down who said what? I give like a very, oh, it's a three.

Oh, she's the, like a very vanilla, basic, i'm frightened so that they might come back after me. reviews are important. I'm a [00:10:00] writer, so for me, I've always leaned on career journaling, writing down things that are happening, processing. We do that often in our personal lives, but how often do we do it from a work standpoint? My theory is that most of us know when we're behaving badly. Let's just be like most of us. I'm not talking about a Harvey Weinstein or anyone who's been in the news who has been enabled in a system. I'm talking about mita at work knows when she screamed at someone, known when she's been a jerk, known, when she's been disengaged.

I know these things about myself. And so if I can sit and reflect and I have over the years, I'll find patterns on things that are happening, I'll think, see things that emerge that I wanna work on. And so how often are we sitting with ourselves in the quiet. And listen. People ask me, what's the next app you're using?

What's your productivity hack? I'm gonna tell you, it's an old school notebook and pen. There's nothing like sitting with yourself and writing things down just to process the pen. It's the paper. You [00:11:00] see it, your brain's processing and you're sitting there quietly reflecting. It's one of the best things that I do very frequently.

Mahan Tavakoli: It is a wonderful practice and it's also contributed to your. Writing, including capturing these different archetypes of bad bosses. Now, here's one thing I wanted to expand on a little bit there. Mita, you mentioned most of us already know it. I would add a however to it. However, we also have excuses in that I work with CEOs.

Where they would say, sure, but the board expects perfection from the materials we put in front of the board. Therefore, that's why I get frustrated, or that's why the second a board member emails, we need to be responsive, so on and so forth. They know it, but it's almost as if it's out of my control.

It's the board, it's the clients, it's the constituents , their demands [00:12:00] require us to be responsive. That's what's putting pressure on me.

Mita Mallik: And that's fair enough. You know what it's interesting is that they have that self-reflection. You're one step closer to changing the behavior. The question I have is this, we don't talk enough about the cost of losing employees and turnover. 'cause that's ultimately what we're talking about, right?

The. If more of us led with kindness in the workplace. And that doesn't mean I'm weak. It doesn't mean I don't, I can drive results. I can be firm and I can still be kind, kind is clear as Brene Brown reminds us. And so about it from a perspective of it's a retention tool. that you actually can get people to stay and grow with you. And when you have these behaviors, and listen, I am a notorious micromanager. It's something I watch myself on. We all have behaviors. They can swing this way or that way. It is when these behaviors are exacerbated repeatedly. So it's not a bad thing if a board member expects a response right away on something urgent 'cause you're raising money. That there are [00:13:00] moments where it's hey. We're on call this weekend. Although, I would argue the, I have never, I've sold a lot of beauty products. I've sold serial, I've sold SAS software. I've been not a 9 1 1 operator, not an emergency room professional, not a crisis counselor.

Nothing I have ever done is life or death, and I think we treat too many of these things like that in our workplace, which leads to burnout. Unless you are in a workplace and you're listening and you do deal with life and death, thank you doing that. But most of us are not doing that.

Mahan Tavakoli: , There is much more control than we assume that we have. Although, as you mentioned that initial awareness is important in being able to address it Now you mentioned that bad bosses are made not born. So

Mita Mallik: Yes.

Mahan Tavakoli: are the contributing factors to making bad bosses?

Mita Mallik: I love that question. One is the external environment. That's like the first thing that I study is that there's tariffs, is a competitor who's come out with an innovation or a product faster than [00:14:00] you did and is doing gangbusters. There's an m and a that failed, that no one's willing to talk about all kinds of things that are impacting your business and that's causing you stress.

And that's when a behavior is exacerbated. Number two. boss is behaving badly, and as we say in my house, poo trickles down. So then I am taking on those bad boss behaviors, right? They're role modeling it for me. I think it's acceptable and I'm absorbing it. And then number three is, we talked about there's something cataclysmic happening in your personal life.

You lost a loved one, miscarriage, fertility issues, breakup, divorce, moving someone's sick, you're sick. God, so many things. Some something's happening to a family member across the world, which is very. Very real these days and that is causing you stress. And for me, I think about these moments, I think the universal moment we can all remember is the pandemic.

Most of us, lived through it. I know many of us lost loved ones. And you think about the loss of control. If you are struggling with control in your personal life like I have, how, what's the [00:15:00] fastest way to get control? It's go control your team. Suddenly I feel like I'm in control. I'm the boss. I can, you know the boss who like needs to get in touch with you and they're going to email you.

Slack, you call you. DM you and then missed FaceTime audio. You're like I have been in a meeting. It's only been an hour. Like I was actually doing work and paying attention, and you need all these ways to try to track me. I'm gonna get back to you. Give me at least a few hours. And so I think that's this control piece right, is like an interesting theme.

And when people go back to try to grab it.

Mahan Tavakoli: Control has a big part to do with it. I was also laughing as I was reading the book. I was reflecting on Mita an incredible CEOI worked with. Amazing men on so many different levels and he had a practice of waking up 4:00 AM to then go on his 5:00 AM. Yeah.

Mita Mallik: well? No.[00:16:00] 

Mahan Tavakoli: No, but he was, and still is an active runner.

He wanted to go running at 5:00 AM so at 4:00 AM he would check his emails and then respond to emails, or send emails based on what he was thinking. And I was reflecting on the fact that had trained me. To wake up as early as I could, and the first thing I would do is grab my laptop or grab my phone.

Mita Mallik: And

Mahan Tavakoli: if you get an email from the CEO at four 30, you better not respond, at 8:00 AM

 There are practices that we might not reflect on, which also contribute to some of those behaviors in our team and organization.

Mita Mallik: I agree, and it's what's convenient for me is not convenient for you, It's the boss who I worked for the opening chapter. The Devil who emails at midnight never had time for me during the day. I chased her around like a golden retriever. I just [00:17:00] desperately wanted. To have time with her, right? Chased turned into the parking lot.

She had no time for me except from the hours of 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM she would dump her inbox. But to your point, I have been guilty of that. I do that when I just wanna get it off my plate and get it onto someone else's. And so in his case, he wants to start his day before he goes for the run. He wants to fire off some stuff, go have his run, do the ice bath, whatever else he's gonna do.

And I'm kidding. Come back and then he'll start again. We don't realize. And even if it's well intentioned, like I'm just starting this off. I don't expect anyone to respond to me. You, when there's power dynamics, it's really difficult to say that, and I've been guilty of this. It's really difficult not to expect a response.

And then it becomes this terrible you're up. 'cause you know he's going to email. So then there's this back and forth at 4:00 AM 4 35. , 

Mahan Tavakoli: That's why it connects back to that original empathy that you were mentioning having that empathy [00:18:00] means you might not be expecting the person to immediately email you back. But when there are those power dynamics,

Mita Mallik: yes.

Mahan Tavakoli: the sense. People get is very different than you saying, oh, don't worry, respond to me.

Whenever you get around to it, when you're CEO, chairman of the board, president of the organization, people will jump as soon as they get an email from you. So we have to have that empathy for how our actions influence other people's behaviors as well.

Mita Mallik: absolutely. Absolutely.

Mahan Tavakoli: Now , one of the things that I think is really important and you also tackle is the fact that the practices that we engage in can be healthy practices or not so healthy practices.. If you were to look at one of our podcast listeners' calendars, what would tell you that they have healthy practices and approaches to their leadership?

Mita Mallik: An unpopular opinion will be frequent. [00:19:00] Breaks,.  Coffee break, snack break. And I'm not saying like hours, but I'm saying if I look at a calendar and there's just like blocks and blocks, like a Kit Kat bar, I once saw this graphic.

I was like, oh, that is you're just like, what? What's happening here? And I think one of what we don't talk enough about is one of the foundations of being a good leader is taking care of yourself. And I think with the race to embrace AI and all the wonderful things AI will bring. We are not AI agents.

I need to lean into being human. Even my iPhone needs to be recharged. I need to recharge. And so you can't show up and be present for the moments that matter. And so that's so important. And even with the CEO, your CEO, who would wake up at four? Am I, it's interesting. He's going for a run because that's part of his regimen to take care of himself and to energize himself.

And that's so important. So I think making sure that you're taking breaks appropriately as needed. I am interested to see how often people are actually meeting with [00:20:00] people one-on-one. I'm interested to see how many of these meetings are that no one had the courage to cancel. Have you ever been in a meeting where you show up and no one has no idea why you're here and there's like this banter for 10 minutes and maybe 15 minutes and someone's oh. set up this meeting, but she's on vacation and this has been reoccurring since January and we actually talk about this project in another meeting. You're like, what? It reminds me of my wardrobe, like I have to clean my wardrobe out. I have too many things I don't wear. I have things that are just hanging there.

It's the same thing with our calendars, and some of us have a privilege of having someone run our calendars. And so just don't accept everything and stick it on there. You have to be proactive and you have to you take one thing from our conversation today, have the courage to cancel a meeting. Have the courage to cancel a meeting, free up your time. So you can either be doing deep work, you can be taking breaks, but then you can actually be meeting with people one-on-one instead of doing these large gatherings where no one knows what's going on, [00:21:00] and you're all just sitting there wasting time.

Mahan Tavakoli: I couldn't agree with you more. Mita. In my view, those one-on-ones are one of the most important practices that managers and executives can engage in. Now, I want to. Present the other side of it and get your thoughts on it. So I already declared. I believe it's absolutely essential. Now, the other side of it, the most valuable company in the world right now is Nvidia and Jensen.

Huang has 50 direct reports himself and doesn't believe in one-on-ones. He believes if you're doing one-on-ones, it means the systems in the organization aren't operating properly and Aren't the right people for the role. Would love to get your thoughts more on what value you see there being to one-on-ones.

Mita Mallik: So I am not saying that you need to have a one-on-one every day or every week, . It depends on, as you're [00:22:00] saying, the

Mahan Tavakoli: I.

Mita Mallik: the level of the team, all of those things. I want to work for someone who knows something about me and cares about me. I worked for a boss for. Three years who didn't know the names of my children. Basic things, you don't need to know everything about my life. But when you have some sort of human connection to someone, it makes the hard business things easier to go through. That's how we, that's the real conversation of loyalty. If I'm an AI agent, you don't need a one-on-one with me. Sure. But these are human beings you're working with.

So you're telling me you don't ever wanna have a one-on-one with them once, just to say, how are you doing? How are things going? How is that vacation? How is your daughter's basketball tryouts? I know you're a mom's been sick. How are you dealing with it? You don't care about any of that stuff. And I'm not saying this isn't like a deep therapy session that you're doing, but I'm saying like, when people work for me, I just want one point of connection. On something that I know that's a passion, hobby, interest that I can remember about them [00:23:00] and nurture that in our relationship and that makes me really sad that people don't want that. Like that to me is not a place I would wanna work.

Mahan Tavakoli: I think the challenge that I see a lot of times is that they want it, but don't prioritize

Mita Mallik: Yes.

Mahan Tavakoli: And as you mentioned. Whether it is with AI and AI agents, we are going to work in a world where getting things done can be done very effectively through technology and the human relationship part of it. Becomes really important. So I think it's critical, but I have known so many CEOs and so many managers that are well intentioned, but those become the first meetings to get canceled or postponed because it doesn't become a priority.

Mita Mallik: and make sure it's fend off and stay firm. I talk about in the Devil Emails of midnight. If you've made the time. Commit to the time, and if you're going to reschedule, let people know why [00:24:00] and don't do the reschedule. Where that one-on-one is now six months later. And if you have someone managing your calendar, this is it's a priority for me to meet with Mita this month for 20 minutes.

I just wanna see how she's doing. So if that's a coffee, if that's a quick lunch, make that happen for me. So those are the conversations that we don't have enough on the cl clear priorities. And so that's when things get pushed off and pushed off. And then, as I talk about in the devil emails at midnight, if you get to know people, hopefully you can spend time with them in person.

You can send short email notes, slacks, just to, not to say, I had the boss who would be like, hi dot do. You're like, what's going on? Do you want something? Am I getting fired? It's hi. Just wanted to wish you a good Monday. I'm here this week. I'm traveling on Friday. If you need anything, let me know.

Not hard to do, just so that people feel like they're seen and they're valued.

Mahan Tavakoli: Those human connection elements are. The most important parts of the one-on-ones, not the transactional elements,

Mita Mallik: Yeah.

Mahan Tavakoli: can be done just as well through [00:25:00] asynchronous means. Now, remote, hybrid work and global work. Put complexity into what you're talking about.

Mita Mallik: One of the things you have to do is start setting standards and rules for what you expect on how you're gonna work together. I hear too many leaders say have their cameras off, they're not paying attention. What if I am pumping? What if I dunno, I have an eye infection or I'm sick, but I'm still, which I hope people are taking time off, but you never know. if something's happening and I'm camera off, but also this expectation, I want everyone to be camera on every team meeting. And if you're not, let me know. Or one of my team practices would be like, I go camera off when I'm eating lunch and I put that in the chat so people don't see the salad in my mouth.

So I just think like setting the rules of what how you wanna work is really important. And this is an interesting one, particularly if you're leading a. A remote in-person, [00:26:00] hybrid mix of a team. Proximity bias can be real. So if you're sitting next to me in the office two days a week, it's much easier for us to grab coffee.

You'll be there, we'll chat. Our connection might be easier to build. And I'm sitting in Manhattan and I have a colleague in Singapore who's also on the team, but that connection's different and I have to make the time to say, Hey, we're doing virtual coffee and I'm sending you a Starbucks gift card. Show up with the coffee just like I do with you, because you and I would just walk down the hall and get it.

And so there's just has to be more intentionality. But when you have frameworks in place, it gets easier.

Mahan Tavakoli: Now Mita you have been taking notes on these different archetypes for years. I wonder when you talk about them, which one gets the most chuckle from the audience

Mita Mallik: . It's one that you won't expect. 'cause people will say, I don't do that. Which for the most part is true. It's the archetype of the napper. And this is the boss who fell asleep in almost every meeting, whether it [00:27:00] was large or small. And my mother even remembers this. I talk to my mother every day and she said to me when I was writing this book, don't you also remember that he did this?

And I was like, oh yeah, mom, I'm gonna add that in the book now. I have changed the names and details in the timing. I don't wanna shame these people. I'm sure they're good leaders now. But I was worried about this person. I thought, is he an narcoleptic? Does he have sleep issues? Is he fighting with the partner?

Is he on the couch? Does he have substance abuse problem? And then flash forward, it's one day in the cubicle next to me, he's taking a call from a recruiter and I find out his salary is like twice as much as mine. And I'm like, oh my God. And so this is one where people. I'm not gonna nap at work. Although there are cultures where I was just studying in Japan, like napping openly is important and shows actually respect and commitment to your job.

Very interesting. I'd love to have a nap in the middle of the day and refresh. It was, I think the nap pods have been canceled. But anyways, here in some of the US companies. But this idea that. All of us can become disengaged at some point, and it's a [00:28:00] dangerous downward spiral. And I've seen this happen too often. Our culture, the famous quote, becomes defined by the behavior, the worst behavior we're willing to tolerate. And years later, years and years later, I'm like, why didn't they just fire him? How did we let, how did people, it was the worst kept secret. Everyone knew that he behaved this way and he also. Loudly disliked his job. I wish we had the courage to have these conversations at work with each other. And I Michael Murphy's work from Harvard University and he asks this powerful question, and it is, what would it take you to be happy at work again? What would it take you to be engaged at work? And so I had a good leader years ago, I had someone on my team who was struggling and he said, you have to take. Him out to a coffee or a lunch outside of the regular programming at work and just say to him, and it's like a video recorder. There's no emotion. It's like I've observed the following things recently. [00:29:00] of state them and say, what can I do make to help you? What would it take for you to be happy about working here again and be engaged? And there's gonna be a few things that happen. One, the balloon might pop, might tell you a bunch of things that you're like, I didn't know and you can coach and fix it. The balloon might pop. They may tell you things that you're just like I can't actually do anything with this, that I'm gonna have to help you move on because you are meant to do great things, just not on my team. And then there can be the third situation where people have shut down, they've gone too far down, and they don't wanna reveal anything.

And in that case, you likely have to work with HR to help them exit and move forward.

Mahan Tavakoli: Asking those questions becomes important both in getting the engagement from the other person and also if. We do it well. Reducing some of our blind spots. Now, you mentioned these as contributing to happiness at work, engagement at work. [00:30:00] Meta. I was just thinking about this earlier this week I was looking at the Gallup Survey of engagement and in essence it's come down a tiny bit.

However, if you look at it for the past 20, 25 years where they've tracked it, it's been up a tiny bit, down a tiny bit. I was wondering, is it that we as leaders, are not improving? Is it that people's expectations are changing or is it that we are looking for the wrong things in terms of engagement at work?

Because if you look at the data, happiness at work, engagement at work, all of those things have pretty much stayed stable since they've been recorded for the past 20, 25 years.

Mita Mallik: And I would argue, I think if I was gonna predict, I think some of it's gonna go down in the next few years. Slightly trending down, and I think that's because the employee employer contract is broken and no one talks enough about this. The at and TCEO not too long [00:31:00] ago had that memo talking about loyalty is dead. It is dead. It's not like when my uncle left at and t after 30 years and got a Rolex, you got a gold Rolex after 30 years of service, a pension. What? I'll be lucky if I get an oversized hoodie from my company and like a Tumblr or something, A gold Rolex. . Some employers still demand loyalty, and then employees are disappointed when they're let go tomorrow. And so I think that whole contract needs to be reevaluated. And if I'm predicting three to five years out, I think many of us might be in contractor mode. We might be like consultants at a big consulting firm where we have areas of expertise. Job descriptions are loose and we're being moved to the highest priority projects that are needed. We're finishing those off. We may be on the bench or contract may end. They might put us on something else. But I do think it's that mindset that has to shift because if you're not clear on what to expect from work, if you're not clear on how you can contribute, if you're not clear on how you can grow here, all of those things, as you say, contribute to [00:32:00] engagement and happiness.

I'm not clear, so I can't be happy. I'm feeling like. Why am I even here? No one's telling me what I should be working on or I don't feel like my work is being valued and I think that is just has been upended, but no one's talking about it enough. And I think it's coming to a head. Some might say with the current administration and policies, others might say, plus with the race to embrace ai, like the series of layoffs and like death by a thousand paper cuts.

This is what we're all reevaluating. What is our relationship? To work.

Mahan Tavakoli: , What an insightful perspective. Mita. It is broken on both sides. I typically hear from the CEOs and executives who are really disappointed. We hired this person and after a couple of weeks they got a better offer and they left. They are really upset. On the other hand, as you mentioned, organizations in many instances, when they can get the job done in more efficient ways, including now Microsoft [00:33:00] with AI and AI agents for their coding.

They let lots of people go. So we haven't had the conversation around what are those expectations on both sides. Now, for those of us who are working in and with organizations and are leading, we are still leading humans and we will be leading some AI agents.

You share these 13 different archetypes. Part of what you mentioned is a journaling practice, a self-reflection practice is helpful, couldn't agree with you more. How can they ask questions or what are the types of questions they can ask those around them to find? What are some of the practices that they might need to change in addition to 360 surveys or any of those things?

Mita Mallik: I'll offer two things. One is that, and it goes back to where we started, the conversation on empathy and being more [00:34:00] observant about what's happening around you. So it's not always about the verbal, it's the non-verbal as well. How do people react when you speak in a meeting?

Has their behavior changed? Do they seem disengaged? Quiet body language? Were they afraid of you? Were they anxious? All of these things. And then of course, they're the blatant signs, like an exit interview, but there are signs out there, so watch for them the things that people are saying or not saying to you.

And then the next piece on feedback, I actually like to think of it as coaching. And so as leaders, let's ask for the coaching. And so if you and I were meeting on Friday for coffee and. You were on my team, I would send you a note and say, looking forward to coffee. And as a part of our discussion, I wanted to let you know I'm thinking about my own development and one of the things I'd like to work on is how I can delegate projects more quickly and kick them off and how I can be helping people.

With understanding the mistakes they make rather than redoing them. Would love your thoughts on that. So there's two things that happen when you receive this note. [00:35:00] First of all, you have the time to process it. It's not like we talked about. It's I'm not gonna come after you. I can't believe you said that or did that, or you don't feel like you're being put on the spot.

You have time to process it. And the next thing I did was I was vulnerable. I've had many leaders say to me, what do you think I should stop, start and continue. What do you think you should stop, start and continue. Why are you asking me? I don't know, because I've done that before and I had a boss who flew off the handle.

That's not what I should stop, start and continue. I'm like, then I'm not gonna ever tell you again. And so if I as a leader say, here's what I'm thinking when we have coffee. Thanks for the invitation to have this discussion. I actually don't think those are the two things you need to work on. I actually think you did these two things really well, but I'm gonna offer a third suggestion and I'll be like, please, and you're gonna say it, and then I'm not gonna respond in the moment. I'm gonna say, thanks so much for sharing. I'm gonna process this and get back to you. And then of course, following back up after I thought about is this feedback, I always say feedback. Has to be thought of within the context and in the situation. I've been given some feedback in my [00:36:00] career that I don't think has been fair, and so then I think about is that something I'm gonna incorporate or not? And if it is, I'm gonna go back and talk to them about how I'm gonna do it. 

Mahan Tavakoli: The way you, solicit the feedback and then the way you accept it or address it becomes a standard for how people will behave in the future. The other thing that I've seen, and I'm sure you have as well, is people become very defensive when they get feedback. Once that happens just one time, then everyone in the organization quickly gets a signal that we are not going to give this person any real feedback.

Mita Mallik: Yes. Yeah. And it spreads like wildfire. People will say, oh my God, I just got off a call with Mita. She just railed me for giving her the feedback. When she asked you this question, just don't say anything. Say everything's fine. I've gotten those dms right? Everyone's don't say anything.

Don't tell her what you really think, and you don't wanna be leading like that. . 

Mahan Tavakoli: We do want to reduce our blind spots and hopefully learn from some of the bad [00:37:00] bosses you have had and the stories you have shared in the devil emails at midnight. What good leaders can learn from bad bosses, so where can the audience find out more about your book media and follow your work as well?

Mita Mallik: thank you for asking the devil emails at midnight. What good leaders can learn from bad bosses. You can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, your local independent bookstore. You can find me on LinkedIn. I love meeting people. You can send me a dm. Let me know what you think of the book, and then of course, meet@mallek.com.

I'm open for speaking engagements and consulting. 

Mahan Tavakoli: Thank you so much for joining this conversation, Mita.

Mita Mallik: Thank you for having me.