419 Riding the Tsunami of Change: How Leaders Can Thrive in an Exponential World with Dr. Mark van Rijmenam

***DISCLAIMER: Please note that the following AI-generated transcript may not be 100% accurate and could contain misspellings or errors.***

Mahan Tavakoli: , [00:00:00] Mark Von Reman. Welcome to Partnering Leadership. I am thrilled to have you in this conversation with me.

Mark van Rijmenam: Thanks for having me, Moham. It's a pleasure to be here.

Mahan Tavakoli: Mark, I've already had lots of fun in the conversation with you connecting person to person, so can't wait to get some of your thoughts and insights, most especially your views on the future and your book Now, what, how to Write the Tsunami of Change. But before we get to that mark, we'd love to know a little bit more about you, whereabout did you grow up, and how has your upbringing contributed to who you've become?

Mark van Rijmenam: That's a very good question to start off with. , I'm a Dutchie and I live in Australia. And my upbringing, obviously I grew up in the Netherlands. I lived in the, in different locations across the country, which sounds more than it is 'cause it's a very small country. But it's I ended up in the eastern part for the majority of my youth. And I guess the fact that I've [00:01:00] traveled so a lot I'm, it means that I'm very accustomed to change. And that I've moved a lot. I changed schools a lot. And I think that helps to become, yeah, to be able to deal with change quite well. I thrive on change. I really like it. So I think that is a big component of who I am. I've lived abroad myself probably eight or nine years now. Yeah, I've lived in the Caribbean. I've lived in the Middle East and I'm now living in Australia. And yeah it's that perspective. I take with me I have I did a bachelor's degree in hospitality management. So something completely different than what I do at the moment. I was part of an opening team in doing a ski resort in Dubai crazy of all things. And I worked at at a financial big big company ING for cover quite a few years after my master's. And then I eventually I ended up in technology. It's which is a great thing. I love it. And there's so much happening here. So it's, it started from humble upbringings in the Netherlands to the global stage. Helping leaders understand change and understand what's going on and understand how to deal with this tremendous disruption that's happening at the [00:02:00] moment in the world and which unfortunately a lot of people struggle with understanding, which I can understand that they struggle with it, and it's helping everyone to this tsunami of change successfully.

Mahan Tavakoli: Now you refer to this tsunami of change, and I wonder, mark, when I hear that, because I say that to my clients, not necessarily using the word tsunami, and people ask me irrelevant question. They're like, haven't we as humans always felt , this is the fastest changing moment in history. So if you had gone back a hundred years ago, people would've said the same thing 200 years ago, the same thing. So you say, this is tsunami of change. We're experiencing what is different about this that really makes it a tsunami as compared to what we've experienced before.

Mark van Rijmenam: It's twofold. On the one hand it's, there's so much change happening and it's not only technological change, it's also ecological change. It's also geopolitical change. So there's change happening on multiple fronts. I think that's one component. [00:03:00] Then if we dive into the technological perspective, which is , my expertise. We have, all these technologies that are converging. 'cause it is not just ai. The narrative in the media is all about ai, but it's not just ai. We have robotics coming. We have brain computer interfaces coming.

We have spatial intelligence coming. We have blockchain, we have synthetic biology allowing us to create live from scratch. We have quantum computing coming. We have 3D printing coming. So that there's a tremendous amount of change and we have, we are moving through this. Yeah, we are we are now in exponential times or the second half of the chess port as I like to say. And that's obviously, I wasn't alive 200 years ago, but that is sort, this convergence of these technologies that are all powering each other that is driving this tremendous amount of change. And even if I am on long haul flight anywhere to around the world for to help a client. I don't have internet. By the time I land, I am out of date. And it's not a joke. That's just the reality of it. And that's where you [00:04:00] can see that something is different. Because it's happens on a daily basis almost. And it's just, yeah, it literally, you snooze you lose, as we like to say in Australia.

And it's, if you don't pay attention as an individual for your professional life or as an organization or as a society, you are out of date before you know it. And that is the difference with within the past, the European Renaissance, brought tremendous change to society, but it took hundred, 200 years. Now we have what I call a digital renaissance that takes three to five years and probably brings as much change as the European Renaissance did in a hundred, 200 years. I think that's where there's a big difference because, and because change is moving so much faster than ever before.

Mahan Tavakoli: You write about. Breakthroughs happening in mere moments,

therefore, how can we as individuals, first of all, wrap our heads around what is happening?

Mark van Rijmenam: , We humans, we are not made to think [00:05:00] exponentially, we are made to think linear because if you thought exponentially on the savanna you'd be killed by a lion. And evolutionary there was no point. Enabling us to think long-term, longer than the present moment of survival. I need food now. I need to sleep somewhere safe. I need to , get away from the tiger. There was no point to think exponentially and to think what will happen tomorrow or the year after even, and so evolution has not yet caught up with us.

While we have built this highly sophisticated technological society that moves at exponential pace. And I think that's where why it's so difficult to grasp for everyone. Bear a few people who can think exponentially. That is, it's difficult to understand what's going on. And I think, the famous saying is we overestimate the the short term and we underestimate the long term.

And I think that's exactly what's happening at the moment where it's difficult to see and grasp what's going on. That's also why I wrote this book. And trying to help people [00:06:00] ride a tsunami of change. And the reason why I call it a tsunami is because yes, it's overwhelming.

It, and it, yes, it destroys stuff. Or in, its in its way. And yes, if you don't prepare for it, you will be hit harder. But at some point it'll also recede and it'll also go away. And then it's time to rebuild. And then it's time to build something better and learn from the lessons that that we obtain from the tsunami.

So it's, there are multiple angles. Why I think it's tsunami is a good metaphor for all the disruption that is happening. 'cause this is not a this is this. The amount of change that we currently see is not gonna go on forever. It's a period that we have to go through 1, 2, 3 decades probably.

It's not a short term period, but it's still a relatively long period. We have to go through all the change, and then hopefully after that, the dust will settle and we will end up in a better place. And I can understand that, that is overwhelming to people.

Just any real tsunami is overwhelming to people.

Mahan Tavakoli: You described that the future is already here, and it reminded me of [00:07:00] one of my favorite quotes from William Gibson, which is the future is here. It's just not evenly distributed, and I see it quite often.

Would love to know your perspective of when you say the future is already here, what do you mean and how can we gain insights from that point mark?

Mark van Rijmenam: What I mean is that there is already so much change happening and. The way technology is already evolving it seems already like magical for many people. But the thing is only a very small people in the world understands and sees what's going on. And let's around a number.

Let's put 10,000 people. It's a very small number that understands the change what's happening, that understands that the future really is already here in everything that's going on. And that can see the convergence of all these forces working together to create something new. And in that respect, the future [00:08:00] is already here.

It's just unevenly distributed. Only a very small group of people sees this. And for the vast majority, you're busy with your life, you're busy with your job, with your family. You don't have time to think about, all this stuff that, that we think about. And that is all right. But the fact is also that. Everyone needs to prepare for this tsunami of change. And the fact that only let's say that like roughly 8 billion people don't see this coming is problematic. So that's what I mean with the futures here. It's just not evenly distributed. Is that too many people unfortunately are not seeing it coming. And in, in everything that I do in my talks, in my book, in my AI platform that we are building I try to help people become more aware of what is going on so that if you are aware of what's happening we obtain a different perspective as we start the conversation. And then you are better able to to make the right decisions for you, for your family, for your organization, for your country for humanity based on all the change that is happening.

Mahan Tavakoli: That's an [00:09:00] outstanding point and I couldn't agree with you more, mark, where it is essential for us to recognize. Eyes that future is already here and therefore we can act accordingly. I run into and interact with a lot of very smart CEOs and executives whom, in my humble opinion, don't get that they are focused on a quarterly basis and they don't see those longer term curves and impact.

One of the good things is typically podcast listeners, including mine, are people who are seeking that knowledge and see some of that coming. So I wanna get your thoughts on how can we better prepare. One of the things you say couldn't agree with you more is that lifelong learning is essential and it's not optional.

Would love for you to share why you think that is the case and what else we, as leaders [00:10:00] of teams and organizations can do to prepare for this tsunami.

Mark van Rijmenam: I think, there are two approaches because I agree completely with you. , We need a more long-term approach. We need to move away from three months shareholder value or three year elections that we have here in Australia which is . a very short term perspective.

Very short term mindset. And if you have such a short term mindset, you can't really achieve anything in the long term. So we need to have a much more long-term approach. We need to take into consideration the future generations that even alive yet. 'Cause they are going to inherit whatever we are doing here.

And if we make a mess, then they inherit a mess. And we just don't, we shouldn't want that. So we need to have a much longer term approach perspective in, in whatever we do At the same time how we can write a tsunami of change in the book. I come up with two approaches.

A short term perspective that we'll get to in a second. And a long term perspective. And the long term perspective is focused on education focused on education, both [00:11:00] the young new generation as well as the old generation through the form, in the form of lifelong learning, which I think is really important. But also from a, from the next generation. I think we we have slipped, walked into this digital world. And we don't really understand what's going on. We don't, yes, we know how our phones work, but do we truly grasp implications of using a large language models for our homework for our studies and reducing our critical thinking skills?

No, we don't. And it is because nobody taught us this because nobody was paying attention when this was all rolled out. At the same time, I think education is really outdated at the moment. We still, it's all, a lot of schools and universities around the world focus on root knowledge, memorization and that, that's outdated.

Yeah. Because you can get all the facts on the internet, you need to be able to verify the facts. So that's where analytical skills come into play, which are really important. But we need to change how we educate. We need to help the next generation understand all these technologies, all this change and work towards a better future.

And. I think that's where a [00:12:00] lot of work can be done. There are some schools around the world that are experimenting with this. There's some, digital online platforms such at the Khan Academy, or you have the Alpha School in in America, which is growing. Where they take a different approach, where they work alongside and with technology to help the next generation better understand what's going on, better leverage this technology in an ethical and responsible way so that everyone benefits over time.

But this is a very long-term approach because, educating the next generation, which I think is first and foremost the most important job of society. We need to focus on educating next generation. And in many societies it's not seen like that. It's that, teachers are not often don't get the respect that they should be getting in the important work that they do. And I think that's a big component. If you can change that then we can. Can prepare the next generation of, for all these technologies in ways that are beneficial to everyone. But that's a very long-term approach. And of course, what applies to the young generation also applies to the [00:13:00] old generation from the baby boomers to the millennials.

We also need to understand how these technologies are changing because again, if you snooze, you lose. If you don't pay attention, if you don't understand how these technologies are affecting your personal life, your work, et cetera, you will lose out. And yeah and that's where lifelong learning comes into play, where we are constantly updating our skills, where we embracing the skills that are required for the intelligence age, for the fast changing world we live in. And I think that's really important.

Mahan Tavakoli: Just so I, I understand a couple of perspectives a little bit more, mark. I agree with you that we need to rethink education. . As I mentioned to you, I have two teenage girls. One of them just finished high school, going to college, and other one is in high school. And. I can't imagine the things that they are still being asked to memorize and they're tested on.

However, those are the test results that  determine whether they get [00:14:00] into one college versus another. And then in college, the same pattern repeats and that determines still what jobs people get. So changing those systems, there are a lot of barriers, vested interests that are part of those systems. And I understand the Alpha schools and the Khan Academies of the world, but those are on the margins rather than dealing with the masses.

Would want to get your thoughts on what do you think it will take for that part of the education system in your view, to change and adapt to that future? That we need our young people to be ready for.

Mark van Rijmenam: I think we are seeing that being played out in real time at the moment where, you know, all these kids, they use chat, GBT or other large language models and they, the entire way we've set up our education system in many [00:15:00] countries is outdated almost on the spot. And we educating kids now that, that missed the critical thinking that they, that's so important because they outsource everything to ai. And you schools and universities around the world are just like. What do we do? No, no idea anymore. They are now forced to change their approach to education. And I think that is a good thing because too many schools and universities around the world have been too complacent for too long that it was too nice to just continue doing what they have always been doing because they're con it's a very conservative industry and there's no point to change or whatsoever they are forced to change right now.

And I think that is that might be a, that's a good thing that we they got a slap in the face. And they have to wake up now. And the question is how will they deal with this change? And some school and universities will deal with this better than others. And that's where some schools will become winners and some schools will become losers if they don't understand how to integrate this [00:16:00] technology in into their educational programs And. I think it's a good thing, as wins, Churchill said, you never waste n never let a good crisis go to waste. And I think that's what we see at the moment. The education system is in crisis. And they should leverage that.

Mahan Tavakoli: It is a wonderful way to describe it in that, as you mentioned, some of these tools, including the chat GPTs of the world have been introduced whether the school system wants it or not, and kids are using it. To your point though, what I do see with my girls as well, it is eliminating that critical thinking step.

So they haven't necessarily been taught how to use it, which is a concern in itself. And it sounds like, you. Believe critical thinking is one of those important elements that we need to develop, whether for our young people or continually develop for ourselves.

Mark van Rijmenam: [00:17:00] yes, , Absolutely. I think one of the. Challenges we see at the moment is a lot of these kids they talk to these large language models and they see a conscious being that is their best friend immediately. 'cause that's how it's being programmed to be always nice and pretty much a Yes, sayer. And these

they have this friend all of a sudden between records that, that is always there for them. And they for forget their critical thinking completely. And they just dive in with all grave consequences that we have seen. We've seen examples of self harm of suicide because of the AI told them so well.

That's. The fact that as a society we allow that to happen is insane in my opinion. Is absolutely ridiculous that we do that. And that we allow that to continue to happen. And that's not only the fall of the kids because you can't blame the kids. You know the kids, they see a tool. We give the tool for free. So they will use it. It's like putting. Candies to a toddler. Yes, it's going to eat it, of course, because it's nice and it's addictive. 'cause that's what, that's how it was [00:18:00] made. The candy was made to become addictive so that it the owner of the company would sell more. That's exactly what's happening at the moment. You have the big tech companies, they make this incredibly powerful tool. They give it away for free. Everyone gets addicted. Nobody's being told how to use it. And here we are. And and the fact that we allow that to happen as a society, I think is a shame on us.

That we can't get our act together and that we say no. A an 11-year-old or a 13-year-old should not be allowed independently on to use AI without any training, without any guidance, without any understanding of what it means to talk to an ai No. And a 12-year-old should not be on TikTok following a series in a not realistic videos of the world.

 The fact  we have accepted the current status quo as a society I think is very problematic. And it's a shame on us, I think.

Mahan Tavakoli: So with Wave you talk about watch, adapt, verify, and [00:19:00] empower and watch.  You ask leaders to look for those signals and cultivate awareness.. , , now that any kind of content can be created, whether written, audio, video, and we can't as humans tell whether it is real or not.

That requires those levels of trust in the information that we are sourcing and that I think will become a huge challenge for all of us.

Mark van Rijmenam: absolutely. And . Had to verify everything that we do, verify our data. Am I dealing with the real mahan? Are you dealing with the real mark? Are you dealing with my digital twin? Who am I dealing with or am I dealing with a scammer?

But this goes a lot further. If I owner self-driving taxi company somewhere, and I link with the city's smart grid related to the traffic lights and I understand [00:20:00] the traffic flow from another data source and I communicate with other self-driving cars on the road from other brands.

I, as a machine need to know that the data that I'm using, I can trust that the data has not been tampered with, that the data has not been injected with other malicious data. And that's where blockchain technology comes in, which I think hopefully will and should underpin everything that we do so that we can create this trust and truth in a trustless world where we know that the data that we use to make important decisions has not been tampered with and is trustworthy.

Mahan Tavakoli: I love that term truth in a trustless world, where you see the blockchain as playing a role in that. Now, one other element that I think is critical to leadership, and I see many challenges with this and even to this point, let alone to the future, is the empower point that you make. You argue empowerment drives the future [00:21:00] and mention that. Decentralized decision making is critical. Mark, I haven't met too many CEOs or executives who would disagree with that on the other end when challenged. They all have rationale and reasons why that can't be done that way. So how would you advise for us to move more toward that empowerment and decentralized decision making that you think is essential for this future?

Mark van Rijmenam: I I think as an organization you don't really have a choice. You can decide not to do it. But then I think in the long run, you will just no longer exist. And other companies who are much more agile, much more flexible will survive. 'Cause yes you, you need to, if you understand how the world is changing, you still need to adapt to that change.

And ideally with a long term purpose, you need to go with the flow. You need to integrate these new technologies. And if you do that purely from top. Top down perspective where you [00:22:00] refuse to empower all your stakeholders, not just your employees, but also your customers and your partners that you work with.

And everyone. Then it's not gonna happen. You are you'll be very rigid. And it's in, in Daoism you have the oak, the rigid oak. This is really big. But if there's a storm, the oak will not be able to bend and will break. While the grass, which is a lot more flu flexible will, will move with the wind and will survive. And I think that's the angle we need to take into account that as an organization, you, it doesn't, you can't be the oak because the change is just going to be too much and you will crack. So you need to be flexible. You need to empower your stakeholders. You need to give them the tools , to work with.

You need to give them education to learn. And then just trust that they will do the right thing for the organization.

Mahan Tavakoli: But that requires different systems, mark. So again I think most executives, most CEOs would agree, they would nod their heads. Okay? Sure. Yet, at the end of the day, I am responsible for. Whatever it is are [00:23:00] the objectives of this organization. I'm responsible to the board of directors, or I'm responsible to the CEO.

I'm responsible to the VP of this or that, therefore, so it's not that people disagree conceptually, it's that they have reasons and rationale for why the kind of empowerment and decentralized decision making you are talking about can't happen in their environment, in their organization for their team.

You say it's a must. How can they therefore move toward that must.

Mark van Rijmenam: It always has to deal with creating a culture within your organization that allows that to do that. And yeah. Let me give you an example of. If you don't do this, how this can go wrong, and the example is that in a world that where it's so difficult to verify am I dealing with the right, the real person, criminals will use this more and will use deep fakes of [00:24:00] video calls and et cetera to defraud organization.

And this is happening already all over the world where many organizations are being defrauded for millions of dollars. let me also give you another example of how you can create a culture where a different story happens. And this one is a Ferrari. They also were almost defrauded of multi-million dollars. A director got a call from the CEO and the CEO said, I need your help with a merger and money needs to be transferred quickly, et cetera. But the director at some point became skeptical and I was like, am I really dealing with the CEO? And he said, I'm sorry, Mr. CEO Beto I need to interrupt you.

I need to identify you. And he asked the question that only the CEO knew. He said, what was the book that you gave me last week? But I wonder. How many organizations that would be an acceptable behavior where anyone within the organization can challenge a senior and says, I'm sorry, Mr. Or Mrs.

CEO, or VP, or whatever, don't trust who you are. I'm gonna need you to identify you. To me, 95, 90 9% of organization. [00:25:00] That is not done. That is that, but you have to. Because if you don't do it and you as an organization, you trust the leadership will be misused. So you'll, you don't have any other option. You can decide not to do it, but you'll feel it. And so that's a really I think an inter an example that shows you that you'll have to change and you have to empower your culture. And that yes, it's okay to challenge not only when it comes to identifying your senior leader but to challenge the whatever is going on because, the processes that were created years, decades ago might not, might not, no longer work in today's world.

Same thing as with education that we just discussed. So as an organization, you can decide not to it's up to you. But yeah, the risk is on you as well. Then.

Mahan Tavakoli: What a beautiful example, mark. I absolutely love it. And it goes to your point that you mentioned. You write about the questioning of hierarchies to avoid blind [00:26:00] adherence. I think whether it is in our education system, which you refer to, we train kids for blind adherence. The person in front of the room knows best in most instances, therefore don't challenge.

And in organizations, even for leaders that don't consciously do this, there is an element of deference to leadership, deference to positional authority. Therefore, people not being willing to challenge what you are saying is. That challenging, that real decentralized thinking is what will differentiate the most successful teams and organizations in the future.

Mark van Rijmenam: , The fact that you as an organization, you might have been successful in the past decades, doesn't mean that you'll be successful in the future. We saw that with the most successful company that has ever existed, the East Indian Company, the Dutch company that did the [00:27:00] trade between the net, the Netherlands and the East. I think I saw somewhere on the internet, and don't quote me on this, but I saw somewhere on the internet it took to today's standard. It would've been worth like $8 trillion or something like that. It, it had its own army. It fought wars. It was so big. It was unimaginable. But it didn't, went along with the changing world and it lost out. And it no longer exists. So to no organization, no matter how big you are, whether you're Apple, whether you're meta, or whether you are a small organization is, can resist change or guaranteed to be around here in the next 50 years if they don't decide to change with it. And I think that's really important to, for organizations to be aware of and to accept that, yeah, the world is changing on a constant basis. It's changing faster than ever. And if you as an organization are too wi, you will be in, trouble.

Mahan Tavakoli: So one of the things that you also mentioned is that this is actually a potential for growth. So while there is chaos, you [00:28:00] view it and frame it as a potential catalyst for growth for organizations.

Mark van Rijmenam: Yes, look for a very long time. I had the perspective of an optimistic dystopian, which is a bit of an oxymoron. But it is very useful in understanding the good, the bad, and the ugly of technology and to find the balanced perspective. But it also veers quite a lot to the negative component.

And what I try to do with my now, what book is to have a more optimistic perspective. So I see I see myself as an architect of tomorrow helping organizations design and build better futures. And the objective of the book is to have everyone become an architect of tomorrow so that we can all contribute to designing and building a better future. I love humanity. I love being alive. So let's, let's make let's build a future that works for all of us. And we have these beautiful technologies that, extremely powerful tools that can improve our healthcare, improve our education system, pre improve our neighborhood, and improve everything that we know of.

And so let's use it [00:29:00] wisely. And yet let's use it ethically and responsibly to the benefit of all and not just a select few. And I think, yeah I wanna give a message of hope with the book that is possible. Yes. The coming years will be, kale, chaotic. There will be so much chaos because there's so much disruption. And, but we need to embrace that disruption. We need to embrace that change and we need to be able to see through it. That on the other end, if we do it correctly, if we manage to to build it all ethically and responsibly, there will be abundance. But we have to go through this first. And that's also, again, as I mentioned at the start, that's why I chose the metaphor of the tsunami. It's not something that's forever. It comes it disrupts and it goes again. And yeah, we just have to hope that one, it, when it recedes that we are ready for building a better society.

Mahan Tavakoli: In order to take advantage of it, you have already mentioned that one of the most critical things for us as individuals and leaders is that ongoing [00:30:00] lifelong learning for organizations. One of the things you have mentioned is reducing or getting rid of those hierarchies and blind adherence and making sure that there is decentralization of decision making.

What El. Do you think is essential for leadership and organizations to be able to ride this wave rather than what you say? A lot of people are bracing for impact. You don't wanna brace for impact, you wanna have that optimism that you talk about and act to ride the wave. What else do you see? It takes Mark to ride the wave.

Mark van Rijmenam: I think there's one really big important component, which is a, a big message within the book is that we. On the one hand, we need to achieve a GE style shift, right? We need to see the world through a different lens, through a different perspective. That an e can also be an m or a three or a W depending on how [00:31:00] you look at it. And in a world that's changing so fast, if we have our current narrower perspective, we might, we will miss a lot of the change that is happening. So that's one component. At the same time what I also write in the book as I use philosophy, eastern philosophy, indigenous philosophy and I look at nature of how we can what lessons we can draw from this.

And one of the really important lessons that I described in the book, and that was based on another book that I read which is called An Immense World by Ed Young, Edward Young. Where he described it. Every animal, every organism has its own uml. And so it, it sees its world through its own perspective.

Whether you're a bat, you use echolocation or where you are a bee you use different approaches or whether you're human. We have a very narrow bandwidth of light that we can see and for us to it might, we will never understand what it's like to be a bat and vice versa. But what I, why I included include that is because a lot of us, whether you're an individual organization or society think that our reality is [00:32:00] the reality.

And that's just not simply the case. Your reality is completely different from my reality, even that we are in the same reality at the moment in this podcast. You take something completely different away from it than I do. And if we. Don't understand. And if you don't wanna see that your reality or my reality is not the reality or that the organization's reality is not the reality, or humanity's reality is not the reality, but one in a multitude of realities from all kinds of organisms et cetera, then I think we have a very narrow perspective on the world.

And in a world that's changing so fast, we need to start to understand that your reality is not the reality.

Mahan Tavakoli: That is a powerful point and a hard one to grasp. .

It's something that I hope people can sit with because it requires reflection at a time when the world is changing so fast.

Mark van Rijmenam: Absolutely. And , it's difficult [00:33:00] to accept that my reality is not the reality. 'cause it's very convenient to say . This is the reality. And whether that's also from a humanities perspective, as humanity, we are very good to, to say that humanity's reality is the reality.

But ask a bet and a bat will have a completely will, will completely disagree with you. You ask a B and it will completely disagree with you. You said no. Your reality human humans is not my reality. And I see literally the world completely differently, like literally see the world differently. And that is something that we need to grasp, that we need to understand and that we need to understand at the same time that, that everything is interconnected. That, that, no the whole world is one interconnected play. And if we don't understand that, I think as humanity, we'll have a hard time coming.

Mahan Tavakoli: So in both trying to understand that and expanding our mind and our thinking. You have repeatedly mentioned that this is a tsunami that's [00:34:00] coming. That we are experiencing now probably 20, 30 years or more, and you write also about 2050. Would love to know from your perspective, what are the scenarios playing out so we can expand our thinking of some possible potential futures when we fast forward to 2050.

Mark van Rijmenam: Yeah so in the book I do this , in two ways. On the one hand I have a science fiction story in the book and throughout the book, and I do that because I believe in the power of science fiction, that it helps you understand the very intangible, very abstract future and science fiction makes that tangible. And in my last chapter of the book, without going into many details I need discuss the scenario of 2050 of how the world might look like if we, integrate all the lessons that I share in the book and how the world might look like. And that's [00:35:00] a world where, we can trust again because of the systems that we have created. Whether it's our data or how we interact with people. We have a system where we can, could trust the AI that's, be everywhere to work in our best interest in our organization's best interest in humanity's best interest in the planet's best interest. And that's a world that is very fluid and very interconnected.

And things change almost in a, on a magical way. It's a very positive scenario because I do believe that we wanna. We wanna look to the future with hope because if we look to the future with doom and gloom, then we might as well quit today. We wanna look with the future with a lens of hope.

And I do think that if we are able to connect all these technologies and everything that we do in a responsible and ethical way, then the future will be one of hope. And it will be a future of abundance and it will be an amazing time to be alive. And yeah, I'm very much looking forward to that.

Mahan Tavakoli: There is tremendous potential in each and every one of these technologies. [00:36:00] I understand some a little more than others. However, when you talk about ai, spatial intelligence, quantum computing, blockchain, biotech, each and every one of those can transform our world in unimaginable ways, let alone the convergence that you talk about.

So the potential is incredible with us understanding. What we are in for setting the right guardrails, working on the right things, including the learning and the critical thinking. So there is a lot of hope for that future.. What's in your view, one thing that leaders should start doing tomorrow morning?

So give me, as an organizational leader, as a CEO, as a manager, as an executive, give me advice. What should I do?

Mark van Rijmenam: Read my book as a starting point to start to [00:37:00] grasp what's happening and to really understand that the world of yesterday is no longer. And we need to accept that. And then start to watch for signals. Start to adapt your personal and your organizational life.

Verify everything that you do and start empowering your organization and your surrounding to work with you. To accept, embrace that change a simple framework but I think a very powerful framework that you can apply in your personal life as you as a first graduate, as a student, as a job seeker.

 But also. To apply to small to medium enterprise, or a multinational organization, or even entire countries or humanity as a whole. I think that is something that you can start doing today. And I would argue don't wait for tomorrow.

The best time to start was yesterday. The next best time to start is today.

Mahan Tavakoli: Absolutely. And I find one of the most valuable elements, mark of reading a great book like yours, is that once we do, then we see more of the patterns and signals [00:38:00] in our environment and in our world that normally we would not have picked up. So one of the reasons I enjoy reading books like yours and these conversations is that.

I start noticing things and seeing things that other people wouldn't see or wouldn't pick up. Not having that knowledge and that framing ahead of time. So I think that is critical. Now, in addition to that, , from your perspective, when leaders finish your book and they ask themselves now what, what do you want their answer to be? 

Mark van Rijmenam: want that answer to be like, yes, I can be an architect of tomorrow, and yes, I will do my part to design and build a better future. I am responsible for that future myself. And I will do so in a way that is in harmony with all beings, both [00:39:00] humans and non-humans. And I will do so that in harmony with the future generations that are yet to come and I will do so in a way that is beneficial to all stakeholders. And yeah I, and I hope that's something that that readers will take away from the book , yes, it's it sounds overwhelming, but it's something that we can manage and we can guide them. We are responsible for ourselves. Yes, we can sit in a corner and start crying, but that's not gonna bring us anything.

So we need to get up, start working. Take responsibility , to design and build a better future. And who wouldn't wanna do that for the next generation? And for each other and for humanity. So let's just, stop competing and stop living in a zero sum game and start collaborating to design and build a better future.

Mahan Tavakoli: What a wonderful challenge you throw down Mark. And in addition, I would say that some of the hesitance I've seen on parts of some people is that because they see this as a technological [00:40:00] revolution, they assume that it is something that is understood, will be led by and guided by people who purely.

Understand technology. While the reality is it's the people who understand the human values and the critical thinking. And a lot of those other elements are the ones that are most critical in creating that hopeful future, not the people who purely understand certain aspects of the technology, which is why a book like yours can help us understand and guide that more hopeful, better future.

Mark van Rijmenam: Absolutely. The humanities is gonna be really important. And in a technological world,

Mahan Tavakoli: So Mark for the audience to both find out more about your book and follow your work and your writing, where would you send them to?

Mark van Rijmenam: You can find all information on my website, which is the digital speaker.com. [00:41:00] You can find me on the internet. There's only one person in the world that's called Mark Van, so it's very easy to find me. You can start using Futurewise which you can find on futurewise.com without the e in the middle.

, Reach out to LinkedIn , share my book with others, get others to read because I think this message is so important that we all need to be aware of what's going on.

Mahan Tavakoli: It is an important message, and I love reading your books because I find , they expand my thinking and the potential futures that I can visualize in that the smartest futurists, including you that I have spoken to, most of them would say and would admit, they don't really know exactly where we are headed.

However, they all encourage me and us to expand our thinking and be able to visualize different futures. So reading a book like yours enables me to visualize. [00:42:00] Those different futures and with hope, make a difference to making it a reality. So I really appreciate the conversation with you, mark, and your book Now What?

How to Write The Tsunami of Change.

Mark van Rijmenam: Thank you very much for having me. I very much enjoyed it, and I hope listeners, understand that yeah, awareness of whatever is happening at the moment is crucial to design and build a better future.