436 Closing the Courage Gap: How Leaders Act Bravely in Uncertain Times with Margie Warrell

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Mahan Tavakoli: . [00:00:00] Margie Warrell, welcome to Partnering Leadership. I am thrilled to have you in this conversation with me.

Dr Margie Warrell: I am thrilled to be with you.

Mahan Tavakoli: Margie can't wait to talk about the courage gap. Five steps to braver action. Before we talk about your book though, we'd love to know a little bit more about you, Margie. Whereabouts did you grow up, and how did your upbringing help contribute to who you've become?

Dr Margie Warrell: would say my upbringing shaped me profoundly mahan, and as you can probably tell from my accent, I didn't grow up where I live now, which is in Northern Virginia, I grew up. As I say to people in the deep south, south of the Mason Dixon, south of the equator, in the southern shores of Australia and on a small dairy farm, and I'm the big sister of seven.

We grew up with very little. In the sense that we never went to a restaurant my entire childhood. We never went on a plane. We, life was pretty simple and [00:01:00] unsophisticated, and my dad milked cows for 50 years. But that, that childhood, growing up on a farm with little, it taught me a lot in terms of grit, resilience, perseverance, courage, and I think it set the foundation for.

The very international life I've had, ever since my early twenties.

Mahan Tavakoli: One of the things I wonder, Margie, is that I'm father of two girls. teenage girls and my wife and I talk about the fact that how fortunate are and they are grow up where they are, to have access to all the amenities that they do, but also whether it keeps them and their cohort from developing some of the resilience, some of the courage that kids growing up in harder environments develop.

What do you think about that?

Dr Margie Warrell: I think there's some truth to that in that. We develop our [00:02:00] resilience by needing to become more resilient. You can tell people about the concepts, but there's nothing like experience. And so I know even for my own children, I have four children. I'm a little ahead of you in the cycle.

They're all in their twenties now, and I've always been really conscious that. They didn't know what it was like to not be able to have new clothes or to not be able to do things 'cause there was no money to pay for them. And so I've been really intentional with my husband to try and make sure they appreciate the value of money and they appreciate the importance of hard work and.

Being willing to scrap it and hustle at times, they didn't have to hustle the way I had to hustle. And so I, I definitely think that there is a gift in childhoods that aren't as privileged. [00:03:00] And aren't as affluent. Now, that's not to say that every child who doesn't have access to resources ultimately thrives as an adult.

Not all do. I think that personality could come into it to some extent, and that's not to say that kids who haven't grown up, with affluence. Aren't gonna thrive either. But I do think those factors contribute to our identity and how we see ourselves and some of those skills. And I think of courage as a learnable skill.

I think of resilience as something we cultivate through experience. And so yeah, the childhood we has absolutely shapes it. And I, in my adult life, having also worked with some pretty phenomenal people. Some of them have come from privilege. Yes. But I've I've met many who have really had to overcome a lot in their first 18 years of life that, that, that shapes them a lot as adults in ways that serve them and some ways that don't serve them.

And that's their work to do, but also in ways that [00:04:00] really make them, people who are. Bold and tenacious and determined and I think while I've certainly had to work through some of my own childhood wounds, I think we're all gifted and wounded by our childhoods. I think I've been served in many ways too.

Mahan Tavakoli: It goes to also the power of our stories and understanding our stories. I know you go into this in the book as well, Margie. When you talk about resilience, when you talk about courage, there is a lot of your story that has contributed to that. 

Dr Margie Warrell: Our identities is all part of narratives that we've created over time. I. Just recognizing that who we are isn't always who we tell ourselves who we are, but that will shape how we see the world and what we do and how we feel and what we don't do.

And we can be very much held captive to those narratives. [00:05:00] Our lives can be hemmed in, like we are living in a straight jacket to the narratives that we've created about our childhoods our parents. What they did and what they didn't do, the opportunities we had, we didn't have what we succeeded at, what we failed at, where we have shame stories of inadequacy and so yeah, that was a, in the book, the Courage Gap that I wrote I have an entire chapter dedicated there rescripting the narratives that keep us stuck.

That keep us living too safely, that sometimes keep us stagnating, keep us stressed, make us more anxious than we need to be. But sometimes that give us air cover for. Not stepping forward to really take full ownership of our lives to make the changes that we're wholly capable of making, but we convince ourselves that it's not prudent [00:06:00] or we are too old or we are too young, or we are not enough of this and too much of that.

And so I, my little litmus test, and I included this in the book, if your story isn't making you feel more powerful and that if it's not giving you a sense of agency. If it's keeping you stuck in any sort of victim narrative, then it's working against you. If it's not making you feel more positive, if it's fueling cynicism and skepticism then it's working against you.

And if it's not. Making you feel more purposeful if it's not infusing meaning into past experiences that align with your values and that move you toward values aligned action. It's working against you. So is it making you feel more powerful, positive and purposeful? And if you can't say a hardy yes to that, then I invite people to just take a step back and ask yourself.

How else could I [00:07:00] explain my life's journey? Who I am, who I'm not, what I'm good at, what I'm not great at, or haven't yet developed skill in, in a way that. Really puts me in the driver's seat of my own life and expands the different actions that I could take. That puts me in a place of going, ah, the rest of my life is still unwritten.

I am the author. I hold the pen. No one else, not my. Ex-partner, not my boss, not my parents, not my kids, not that person who, ruined my life or, the banker who's, holding the purse strings. And I think so often we. We disempower ourselves in ways we're not even present to.

And that's why that process of really stepping back and looking at what are the stories that are shaping us, 'cause they're not just describing our lives, they're generative they shape our lives too.

Mahan Tavakoli: [00:08:00] I wanted to go in a little deeper into that. Margie, you said we are different than the stories we are telling ourselves about ourselves. how can we confront that there is a level of. Blind spot that I see in what you just mentioned, where we are telling ourselves stories about ourselves that is different than who we really are. How can we bridge that gap?

Dr Margie Warrell: Yeah, firstly , to recognize that we all have some level of blind spots. We're all vulnerable to what I call vital lies which N Ssam Taylor wrote about in his book and vital lives of the soothing mistruths. We tell ourselves to make ourselves feel good about ourselves and they may be victim stories like, it's not my fault, and they could be leaving us in that place or blaming others.

Sometimes they can have us not taking ownership of our mistakes and learning from [00:09:00] where we've fallen short and how do we close that gap is firstly just recognizing that not everything you tell yourself is true, and that who you are is someone that's. Very likely, far greater and probably more complex than, and than what you maybe the simple story you've created.

And knowing that we are all prone to telling ourselves sometimes overly simplistic stories that black and white, this is how it is. And often there's a lot more nuance in it than that. And I think just firstly, starting from that place of just recognizing that maybe who you are is not who you've been telling yourself, and if that just opens the door a little bit if I'm not who I've been telling myself I am, who is it that I might choose to become?

What are the traits and [00:10:00] characteristics I've seen and admired in others? That I sometimes tell myself, that's not me. I can't be that because. I fully believe that every one of us we are, we contain multitudes, and I've forgotten the poet that said that, but we contain many multitudes. And anything in someone else lives in you, the good, the bad, the ugly.

But if you look at other people, maybe they're people in history, maybe it's someone you knew as a child. Maybe it's just someone you admire right now and think about. What is it you admire in those people? And know that those traits, they live in you and you have everything it takes to grow into being more like that yourself.

Maybe it's very undeveloped. Maybe it's very unpracticed. Maybe you've never been very playful. That doesn't mean you can't be playful. Maybe you've never been very assertive or organized or [00:11:00] tenacious or resilient or outgoing or, and maybe that's not your natural, leaning. But that doesn't mean you can't cultivate that as a learnable skill.

And courage itself is not a trait a, we like to sometimes think, oh, that person's bold, but courage is actually a learnable. Skill. It's a practice we cultivate and strengthen it by practicing it. And so who is it that you want to be? Who is it that you would just feel deeply inspired to be as a person?

Maybe kinder, maybe more outgoing, maybe more organized, and knowing that you get to choose again and again as many times as unnecessary for the rest of your life to be that person. And it makes me think of a quote I came upon years ago, Mohan by Lily Tomlin. The comedian and she said, I always wanted to be somebody.

I sh I should have been [00:12:00] more specific. And I just think decide who it is. You wanna be in your one and only precious life and move in that direction knowing it's not an end destination. It is a journey. We are always on our way to becoming. And none of us, no one ever. Arrived. You might say, okay, maybe except for Jesus or some other, figure that was just at a higher plane of just being.

None of us ever arrive and even those of us who may practice things a lot, we all fall short. And just recognizing there's always gonna be some level of gap between who we are being and who we can be, but that we get to choose to close that gap every day. It takes deliberate intention and practice and a lot of self-compassion when we mess up and fall short.

It.

Mahan Tavakoli: That's a beautiful way, Margie, for us to. Reflect on the power of who it is we want [00:13:00] to become and in that direction. What I am thinking about is also it becomes powerful in leading others as well.

Through this by ourselves, we are able to enable others to achieve who they want to become through our support, guidance, and

Dr Margie Warrell: You bet my work with leaders. Ha. One of the key questions I'll ask leaders is. What kind of leader do you wanna be? What kind of leader do you need to be right now given the specific context that you are leading in right now? And maybe you need to dial up some things that aren't your default. Maybe you are a real task orientated, hard driving, get it done person.

And right now you need to lean in and be a little more relational, lean in, and be a little more empathetic with these people over here that maybe you just. Wanna go. Oh my God. They do my head in. [00:14:00] And one of my, a principle that I work with leaders is put be before Do decide who it is you need to be.

And then ask yourself, if I was being that, if I was being more empathetic, if I was being more visionary, if I was being more inclusive, if I was being more inspiring or bold or insert, whatever it is for you right there, then what would I be doing? What would I be doing more of? What would I be doing less of?

Because when we're anchored in who it is we wanna be as a leader. It helps us to get clarity on what it is we most need to do. 'cause you need to do, you probably feel like you need to do 3000 things today. You don't have time for that. So what is it that, what is the highest value activity that you can be engaging in?

What is the highest level of doing that is only gonna flow when you are anchored in. The [00:15:00] key values that define who it is you wanna be and who you need to be. And the concept of ambidextrous leadership, it's like, what's going on around me and who do I need to be most effective in this moment?

So it's both situational awareness and self-awareness. When those two are coupled, this is the situation I'm in, people are really anxious. We are going through a restructure. We've got gen AI turning everything on its head. We're gonna be outsourcing a whole lot of work to automating it to technology.

How do we level up the kind of roles people are doing? A lot of people are feeling super anxious, being very self-protective in their behaviors, not collaborating, et cetera. Okay, who do I need to be right now? Man? I need to be really clear about the direction we're heading. I need to be reassuring people that you know, there's a future here.

I need to be giving them clarity about what the highest value use of their time is, given the changes that are happening. I need to have a lot of consistency in how I'm showing up [00:16:00] because that helps to alleviate some of the anxiety that they're feeling. 'cause they can see at least I'm being consistent.

Whatever the answers are to that question will differ by circumstance. But for everyone that's listening right now, I would just ask you to think about who do you need to be for the people that you are leading right now? What are they looking to you for above all else? And just, use that as your anchor point.

Put a flag there for that and every day, and you find yourself going through the day. Stick it on a sticky note. If I was being. Clearer right now if I was being more assertive, if I was being more disciplined, whatever it is, ah, what opens up in that space?

Mahan Tavakoli: Absolutely love that, Margie. What powerful question. For us to ask ourselves, who do I need to be and who do I want to be? Whether in our individual [00:17:00] roles or in this instance in the leadership that is required. As you said, a lot of times we ask ourselves, what do I need to do rather than, who do I need to?

Be, and there is so much power to that. I love Jonah Berger's work out of Wharton. He's written a lot of outstanding books marketing influence and the power of. Identity and who you are in driving action so what an outstanding question for all of us to ask. Who do I want to, and who do I need to be leading at this moment or in this specific situation?

Dr Margie Warrell: Yeah. As I wrote about in the courage gap, fear constricts. Our actions, our behavioral repertoire, it narrows it right down. It becomes very short term focused. It becomes [00:18:00] uncreative. We don't tap into our own natural ingenuity. We don't come up with more novel solutions. It gets, it's very defensive.

Courage when we're anchored in that place of values, we're operating from our values and not from our fear. It expands our behavioral repertoire. It's I could go over here. I could go over there. And so it's why constantly anchoring in our values, particularly when there's a lot of disruption and uncertainty and change, enables us to lead from values.

Versus leading from anxiety. It enables us to lead from. A place of who it is we wanna be versus a reactive self, de self-protective, self defensive mode. And all of us are vulnerable to becoming a little insecure, to feeling a little anxious when the ground underneath us feels shaky. When the future has got a lot of [00:19:00] unknowns and we are not sure what's gonna unfold.

And it's why when things are really uncertain, we need to really put deep roots down into what we are certain about. I am certain that I wanna show up as someone who is kind and very humane in how I deal with people. I am certain that I wanna be consistent in how I show up. I'm certain that I want to be moving toward a vision that makes this organization better, and that also adds more value for all of our stakeholders.

And when we are really able to do that, then we are led by our values and not by our emotions. And I think. When I talk about who leading from who versus do it is, in a sense, it expands our capacity to move forward amid all the complexity. And in a time like this, it, and it's only gonna get messier. It's only gonna go faster.

If you think about it, generative [00:20:00] AI is the worst and dumbest it's ever gonna be for the rest of our lives in human history. It is as dumb right now as it's ever gonna be. And it's mind blowingly extraordinarily, astonishingly intelligent. So if this is the dumbest it's ever gonna be, and I'm using that word, intentionally like wow, how is the world gonna change in the next five and 10 years?

So we need to be expanding our capacity to make decisions, to take action, to influence people toward outcomes. And that's gonna take us being very deliberate in how we lead ourselves day by day and hour by hour.

Mahan Tavakoli: And that's why, to your point, Margie, that recognition and understanding of who do we want to be and connecting with that becomes even more important. Couldn't agree more with you both with the advancements in ai. AI [00:21:00] agents that I believe will be a big part of the workforce. Our colleagues in some instances, managers, in many instances, employees will be AI agents. Therefore, the human interaction will require different capabilities and require the kind of understanding that you are talking about who do we want to be and. Representing ourselves to others. That way that humanity becomes even more important. Now, one of the things you mentioned that I want to touch on more is fear. And that is a big driver, whether it is with uncertainty, ai, everything that's happening in the work environment, and you talk about fear traps. One of the challenges that I see Margie, that. Higher performers in many instances, CEOs, leadership teams [00:22:00] that I deal with have difficulty facing up to that fear because they. Imagine that the rest of the team, everyone else is looking to them not to have any of the fear.

Dr Margie Warrell: Yeah. Well, I'm sure you know as as a coach and leadership expert yourself, what we resist persists what we deny. Just goes down deeper and, but ultimately expresses itself later and uglier. And so the fear that we don't own is owning us and to be denying brushing under the carpet, pretending away the fear that we might feel.

Is not doing us a favor, it's certainly not doing others a favor. And so to your point, you made a point earlier about in a world where we are automating more, the human factor actually becomes the biggest differentiator. Gen AI allows me to do [00:23:00] incredible data analysis, et cetera. It levels the playing field in many ways.

So my ability to show up fully human and fully human means really present to my own vulnerability. Being authentic and mastering my own emotional state and courage. Of course, as we know, it is not the absence of fear. It is the decision, the conscious, deliberate choice to move forward because something more important matters.

And for leaders, it's okay for you to feel a little anxious or a little nervous or sometimes a little overwhelmed or afraid. And if you can share that in a way that it's not that you are being governed by the fear, but yeah, I fear it. I see it. I'm shining the light. I'm calling it out. Yeah, I get a little bit worried that, I like what it takes, that we are not gonna adapt fast enough, that our systems aren't going to be able to keep up with the pace of [00:24:00] change.

But I'm really committed to leaning in. To learning, to accelerating how fast we're learning, to bringing all of you and helping us as a team collaborate together, find synergies that we can't see right now that actually inspires people because it's real and I. In the work that I do, the thing that I see the most and feel it in my own, in my own being is we crave authenticity.

We crave realness. We crave leaders who can be really human and not just that little bit like robotic or. Who are, they? We're wondering who are you when you go home, who are you when you take off all of the veneer. And people wanna know that I can know who you are as a human. And so I don't think we need to be ashamed that we sometimes feel that it's, but it's that we are not being governed by that.

And so when you can share it with people, one, I think it actually [00:25:00] builds trust. It makes you more. Someone that they wanna follow. Not less, but you need to be continually doing your own inner work, your inner exploration. Because I've witnessed many times Mahan leaders rise through the ranks because of what they do.

Technical expertise, skill, mastery, knowledge, know how, but they limit themselves because of who they are, because they haven't developed those inner. Aspects, that inner capacity, the self-awareness, the mastery of their emotional state, the connection to something bigger within themselves. I call it the spiritual aspect of their lives.

And so when we do that inner work on ourselves, and it's, and it never ends by the way, it actually expands our ability to make an outer impact.

Mahan Tavakoli: That inner work is essential, and I love the way you also described it, Margie, that [00:26:00] there is a level of authenticity and. Ability with the fears that we are facing, it doesn't end there.

Dr Margie Warrell: There is no courage without fear. Can I just wanna say that there is no courage without fear. It is because fear is the entryway to building courage. So thank you. Fear. And also thank you fear. 'cause we wouldn't be here as humans if our brains weren't exquisitely wired. To be on alert for potential threats to our survival.

It's just that these days, it's not saber-tooth Tigers. It's being pushed out of the leadership team. It's being not included in that decision making. It is. It is our sense of status, it's our sense of belonging. It's our reputation that we are on alert for. And coming back to that, the first principle in the courage gap is focus on what you want, not on what you fear.

And yet we cannot. Lead with courage until we own what we fear, [00:27:00] but we, our commitment to a positive future outcome has to exceed our fear of a negative outcome. And so unless we are really clear about what it is we most want, what is the highest uncomfortable good. I love that phrase. I choose that phrase the highest uncomfortable good that I'm pursuing right now.

Because if you are a leader and you are not uncomfortable, I'm saying you're not leading fully. You are leaving something on the table and you're actually not adding all the value you can for the people around you and potentially putting them and yourself at risk down the track. You should be outside your comfort zone regularly.

It's okay that you're outside your comfort zone. That's where you grow. As I shared the story growing up on the farm, learning to ride horses, growth and comfort. Can't ride the same horse. And I say that having fallen off 1,001 times. We have to be continually leaning into the awkward, uncomfortable moments.

That's where our growth is as leaders, but that's [00:28:00] also where we get to make our highest point of contribution.

Mahan Tavakoli: That is beautifully. Said Margie and I love, there is no courage without fear. I really appreciate also the books that Rich Devinney. He is served for almost 20 years as a SEAL team six. Commander and when I asked him about whether he would be afraid at the Skydives or a lot of the missions, and they had a lot of top secret missions, he said, it's only the crazy people that don't have fear in that.

There a lot of fear. You learn to deal with the fear, recognize it, and then to be able to function effectively. So beautifully said. is the need for the recognition of that fear. Outside of the comfort zone, there is fear. Without that fear, there won't be courage [00:29:00] and growth.

So we need to recognize that both for ourselves and as we want our team members to be able to grow, contribute, and become their full selves as well.

Dr Margie Warrell: Amen. Amen. And let me also add here, I mean there's so many areas, dimensions to this. It's not just identifying our fear and owning it, but then. Recalibrating our relationship to it, regulating it. So much of leadership today is about emotional regulation in ourselves, starting with ourselves, and then emotional regulation in our teams.

Because a lot of people are pretty dysregulated. They're anxious. They're uptight. Their perceptions of risk are amplified. They [00:30:00] see danger everywhere. I think the pandemic contributed to that. I think our 24 7 news cycles contributed to that. I think the algorithms on our social media feeds contribute to that.

We are living in a hyper anxious time. Where a lot of people are going through the world in this dig tangled ball of anxious worry, stressed about everything. And even though right now statistically you just look at the data, we're living in the safest time in human history to be alive. But you wouldn't know it so how do we recalibrate that feeling of fear inside of us?

I do a lot of keynote speaking and before I get on a stage to speak, I often feel like one, racing to the bathroom, I feel sick and nauseous. I sometimes want to just, run out of the round, the back of the conference hall and out. And just because I suddenly feel my [00:31:00] threat system's like I'm about to be judged by a thousand people.

I'm terrified of being judged and found wanting inadequate, unworthy for being on that stage. And sometimes those stages are in front of people who are extraordinary, people who have a whole lot of smarts and expertise that I don't have. And I gotta really watch that narrative. It's Uhhuh, I got something to bring, but two, I need to recalibrate and go those butterflies.

I'm feeling that nausea, that is my body telling me I care. I care about doing a great job. It's also showing that I'm on center stage in my life, living my purpose, moving toward my highest point of contribution. So I go, thank you butterflies. Thank you for telling me I'm in exactly the right place.

I'm meant to be. And it may not go away, but at least I get 'em flying information. Maybe they're doing cartwheels, at least in sync now. And with that, I take [00:32:00] a big, deep. Few big, deep breaths brings me back into my body in the moment where in this moment I'm safe. I'm okay. And then I'll step onto that stage.

But I think for all of us, we have that, those stage moments where we are like, oh, do I have what it takes? I'm about to walk into a meeting. I'm about to have a conversation with a colleague, my boss, one of my direct reports. It's not gonna be an easy one. I'm feeling nervous. That's okay. You're meant to be there and lean into those emotions.

They're not bad. They're data. They're telling you how you're perceiving your what's going on, but they're not directives. They're not telling you. This is how you have to act, anchor in your values, your highest intention, and then move forward from that place.

Mahan Tavakoli: I love the way you said it, Margie, lean into the emotions. You can't just skip over it, and you gave an outstanding example with respect to speaking. . But part [00:33:00] of what you're saying is own it. Understand it, and then therefore, from there you can channel it courage rather than denying it, which I find in many instances people try to do. Now, one of the things Margie, I would love for you to address is in many of the CEOs and executives that I deal with. The way this presents itself is what I would call imposter syndrome in that they have this inner. Talk going on inside their heads that at any point in time others will see that they are not capable they weren't meant to be the CEO. senior vice president, whatever that role or title is. What role does courage play in addressing [00:34:00] imposter syndrome for these people who in many instances have long cvs of tremendous success, accolades all around the community, lots of awards, but still in their minds, there's a lot of fear.

Dr Margie Warrell: Oh, you bet. Firstly, if you relate to any of that as you listen to this, just know you're in really good esteemed company. I recall Margaret Chan former head of WHO saying. I might have three doctoral degrees, but I know I don't know everything. And when people think I know everything, I'm just filled with imposter syndrome.

Oh my gosh, you think I know everything and I dunno everything. My experience, and believe me, I've experienced it myself, is that imposter syndrome is the domain of the high achiever. People who are happy to settle and do sloppy work and not amount to much generally don't experience imposter syndrome.

So you are in great company. So that's number one. Let me [00:35:00] just say. Welcome to the club. You're in a very elite, elite, elite community here of people who experience it. Secondly, imposter syndrome is essentially a narrative that you are telling yourself that at some moment people are gonna find out that you don't know as much as they think you're not as worthy as they thought, and you're gonna, you are, you're gonna get exposed as the fraud that you are terrified to be appear, perceived as.

And so there's a few things that contribute to it. One is many people who experience it don't fully internalize their strengths and their wins and successes. So yes, that resume may look really impressive, but when you get the accolades and you have the win, you don't take long enough to just let it soak into your bones.

I did that. Just write down a list of everything you've done in the last 12 months, much less the last five years. And you'll go, man, that's a lot. Yeah, I did do [00:36:00] that whether I did it or it's because I overcome something. Because often we just focus in on all the deficits. 'cause our brains are wired to focus on the deficits versus all that we've done.

And two, coming back to where we started this conversation, not everything you tell yourself is true. Not everything you tell yourself is true, so you don't have to know everything to be wholly worthy. You don't have to be Einstein or Da Vinci or a to complete master in your trade to still deserve to be in the role you're in.

No one knows exactly what they're doing and anyone that tells you they do, you know they're lying or diluting themselves. So it's okay that you don't know what you're doing. It's okay that you, there is. Knowledge to be gained and skills that you haven't mastered because Yeah, you've never been here before.

Doing this before, and so I've seen this a lot when I coach people stepping into much bigger roles. They're stepping into a C-Suite role and they're like, [00:37:00] oh my God, there's so much I don't know. And I'm like, yeah. You've never done this role. You don't know it, so it's okay. Make peace. I just ask you to make some peace with those fears.

Make peace with that little imposter voice. It's just your fear trying to keep you safe and go, Hey, run back to the sidelines, and then just lean in. Don't let that fear keep you from stepping forward. The only way we beat imposter syndrome is doing the very things that fearful part of us doesn't want us to do.

Mahan Tavakoli: And also the recognition that. lot of other, , high achieving people feel the same thing. You are not alone. If you are feeling it now, there are ways to address it that you mention Margie, but still you are not alone. Now, a couple of things I wanted to also touch on. You have a rule called One Minute Brave. What is one minute [00:38:00] brave?

Dr Margie Warrell: Ah, firstly. Courage is not a one-time decision for the rest of my life, I shall be brave. It is also not a personality trait. It is a choice, a moment by moment choice, and anyone can choose to be brave one minute at a time, and I, I. I share about my one brave minute rule because when I started doing a bootcamp, I went to, we had to do planks and I couldn't hold a plank for a minute in the beginning.

Like I was struggling on, six seconds. But I practiced and I built up that strength. And likewise, you might go, oh, I don't even know if I can be brave for an hour. Try being brave for one minute. Walk up to someone and introduce yourself at an event for one minute of courage.

And you know what? One minute of courage isn't guaranteed to change the trajectory of your life, but it could you introduce yourself. You made an ask, you put yourself out there for one minute. [00:39:00] And I share in the book multiple experiences where I have, I've moved around the world, I've landed in new places.

I don't know a soul. Starting over from scratch, professionally, personally, and so I've had to take myself to events and places where I just have to walk in not knowing anyone. And they happened actually, a couple years ago. I moved to the DC area. I got invited to an event with the Washington Board of Trade.

I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know anyone. And I thought, I'm gonna go for 30 minutes. I'm gonna do 30 brave minutes. And if I don't meet anyone at the end of it. Okay, I'm gonna leave. And you know what? At by 30, I walked in the door and I met someone straight away. That made the whole evening worthwhile.

So I just invite people just to practice. Bring brave one minute at a time. Don't worry about , tomorrow, next week, one minute at a time. You can do anything.

Mahan Tavakoli: Going back to a point you made earlier, Margie, a lot of times we see things as binary. [00:40:00] We aren't. We will, we won't. All you're challenging us to do is not. Be brave for the rest of your life. Be brave for a minute go to that event and say, you know what? For 30 minutes, I am going to be brave and come across as such. So it's a choice and it's a one minute choice. , 

Dr Margie Warrell: One of my favorite phrases is Brave the Awkward. Bravely awkward. That uncomfortable emotion feeling you wanna avoid isn't the enemy. It's the access point. And every time you do, there's a whole neuroscience to this. You rewire your brain. The neurons that fire together, wire together.

It becomes easier. You become braver. You realize, oh, the ground didn't open up. I didn't fall into a hole. I can do it. And the next time you get to lean on that past experience. [00:41:00] And we know from psychology, there is no greater way to build any belief system than the experiences we have. And so when you brave the awkward moment.

When you brave one minute. You set the stage for braving more of them and so just start right where you are. Maybe you've just gotta go to a meeting and you're like, oh, I dunno if I should say something. Just decide. I'm gonna speak up once in this meeting.

Mahan Tavakoli: All of these, Margie, are like a muscle, and the more we train it, the more capable it becomes and we become so. To be brave. Exercise that brave muscle, and choosing a minute an event, an experience to be brave at is an opportunity to exercise the muscle. Now I'm wondering CEOs, executives, leaders who are [00:42:00] listening to this, what would you encourage them to maybe ask themselves to make sure that they are staying aligned with courageous leadership of their teams and organizations?

Dr Margie Warrell: I think it is a valuable practice or ritual for every leader to regularly put into your schedule some. Time dedicated to just resetting yourself obviously we know recharging for our own energy management is crucial, but you may have several decision prompts. I share some in the book.

Like where am I not fully acting in alignment with my values? What are my values? Who is it I wanna be, , where is there some gaps here? Where is there some white space between the kind of leader I wanna be and the kind of leader I'm being? And the, if [00:43:00] nothing else, the simple question, if I was being a little braver.

Today, right now, what would I be doing more of? What would I be doing less of? What conversations would I be leaning into? Where would I be showing up more consistently? Where would I be offering up more of my opinion or where would I be stepping away and challenging some of the status quo? Because what got me here, what got us here isn't gonna get us there.

Mahan Tavakoli: It's essential for us to ask ourselves those questions. You have lots more in your book as well, the Courage Gap. can the audience find out more about your book and follow your writing and your work? Margie?

Dr Margie Warrell: Thank you for asking. Certainly connect with me on LinkedIn. [00:44:00] I regularly post videos. I have my own live Brave podcast that they can listen to as well, wherever they're listening to this one my own newsletter and my website is margie warrell.com. My book The Courage Gap. General Stanley McChrystal wrote the Forward , which was an honor, but you can also head over to Amazon or wherever you purchase books to get a copy of the Courage Gap as well. I really appreciate you Margie, the courage gap, five steps to braver action. Thank you so much for the conversation, Margie. Worrel.

Thank you.