294 Agility Reimagined: Fresh Perspectives to Thrive in Disruptive Times with Joshua Kerievsky | Partnering Leadership Global Thought Leader

[00:00:00] Mahan Tavakoli: Welcome to partnering leadership. I'm really excited to speak to you, welcoming Joshua Karayefsky. Joshua is the CEO of Industrial Logic and author of the book, The Joy of Agility, How to Solve Problems and Succeed Sooner. And in this pace of change that we are facing, our ability to adapt quickly and overcome obstacles is more valuable than ever, which is where Joshua's book and insights come in on agility.

And how it's more than just speed. It's a mindset and skill set that can be honed over time, which is why I enjoyed the conversation and have no doubt you will as well. I also love hearing from you. Keep your comments coming. Mahan at Mahantavikoli. com. There is a microphone icon on PartneringLeadership.

com. Really enjoy getting those voice messages. Don't forget to follow the podcast on your favorite platform. And when you get a chance, leave a rating and review. That will help more people find and benefit from these conversations. Now, here's my conversation with Joshua Kariefsky. Joshua Karayefsky, welcome to Partnering Leadership. I'm thrilled to have you in this conversation with me. Thanks 

[00:01:16] Joshua Kerievsky: for having me on your show. Pleasure to be here. 

[00:01:18] Mahan Tavakoli: I absolutely love Joy of Agility, How to Solve Problems and Succeed Sooner, it is so relevant to so many aspects of our lives and organizations, but before we get to your book and your insights, we'd love to know whereabouts you grew up and how your upbringing impacted the kind of person you've become. 

[00:01:38] Joshua Kerievsky: Thanks so much. I grew up in New York city. So true, the melting pot of people. And I became a second generation software person because my father got into the software industry very early.

He was very good with math. It skipped a few grades and ended up graduating from Columbia and then IBM wanted him to join them, but he didn't join him. He had some fun for a year or two and then. But I met my mom and got serious and started getting into software. So you're talking about the 60s.

And so as a, the person bringing home money, mostly he was building software building systems, becoming a systems analyst. And so gradually we went from very humble beginnings, to making more money and. Going to better places and ended up out in Long Island when I was 10.

And we were lucky enough to have computers in the public schools back then. Middle school and high school, I was taking software programming courses just as part of my education. And I took the first advanced placement computer science course 1985.

We didn't even know what to study. There was no study guide because they'd never offered it before. But I wasn't like a geeky kind of just sit in a dark room and just be on a computer. I liked sports. I was social and stuff like that. So but I loved computers and that got me in early.

And then in the middle of my university education, I took a year off between my sophomore and junior year of university. During that year, I ended up. Getting a job on Wall Street Park Avenue, in fact writing some software for a bank. And that was a big change for me. It was like, oh my God, I can do this professionally.

I'm making good money. They sent a computer back to school with me. So for my junior and senior year, my part time job was writing code. And I loved it, really loved it. I worked on Banker's Trust for years and then started my own company in 1996. So it's been about 27 years of running Industrial Logic.

And we're focused heavily in radically improving software development for organizations, really modernizing how things are done and streamlining it and making it a harmonious operation rather than something that you're upset with, agility has been something I've been involved in for a very long time.

In the software industry, we've basically rebelled against the old ways of doing things in the 1990s and said we need better approaches with faster feedback and faster learning and faster adaptation. And so the lightweight methods were born and these were against the heavyweight methods, which were slow and cumbersome lightweight methods.

Now, lightweight methods was a name people didn't really want to continue to use. They didn't want to be known as lightweight. Agile became the key word there in 2001 with the agile manifesto. anD since all that time we've spent so much time helping companies learn to be more agile in software development, but also you start to see wait a minute.

What about sales and marketing and operations and leadership and so on? Agility is needed in all sorts of areas of the organization. So the ever expanding understanding of agility has been a big part of my career.

[00:04:40] Mahan Tavakoli: You have deep experience both in software development and Agile. Many people associate Agile with software. One of the things I enjoyed about reading your book is... The fact that it is not just about software, and I saw a lot of relevance, including a lot of examples you used about Agile's applicability to organizations operate.

We'd love to get your thoughts, Josh, on first of all, what is Agile? So we're talking about the same thing, and how do you see it going beyond what people typically perceive, which is, this is a process that is used for software development. 

[00:05:22] Joshua Kerievsky: Yes, wonderful question. And I love the you're, saying what does Agile mean?

Because I believe that most folks don't know what Agile means. And we have to start there, we don't know what it means. When you say the word, you may be thinking one thing and someone's thinking something different. Agile is an adjective. In the Merriam Webster American Dictionary, there are two definitions.

And one of them is having a ready ability to move with quick, easy grace. Now, you could substitute other words besides move. You could say having a ready ability to work with quick, easy, grace and so on. That's the first definition. So quick, easy, grace. The second definition, which is equally good, is having a quick, resourceful, and adaptable character.

So we could say, an agile dancer or an agile mind or an agile team, it's an adjective, and so that adjective is not specific to the software field. That's for sure. A surgeon can be agile. A lawyer can be agile. A team can be agile. And so my book is filled with stories of agility. In all areas of industry, in all areas of human endeavor.

It's not specific to it. I do have some IT stories in there, of course, but I'm trying to basically bring the joy of being agile to more people by helping them understand pretty much what does this word mean? And I do that through stories, just telling lots of stories. 

[00:06:49] Mahan Tavakoli: And one of the things I was mentioning to you before we started recording, Josh, is that I'm working with a lot of senior teams right now as they're reflecting on the strategic implications and some of the operational applications of artificial intelligence in their organizations.

A lot of relevance to the need for agility. Would love to get your perspectives as organizations are maneuvering through these more uncertain environments accelerated because of technologies, such as artificial intelligence. How do you see Agile playing a role?

[00:07:28] Joshua Kerievsky: So it's a great question and Agile is about being quick.

It does not equal to being quick, right? You have to be quick, resourceful and adaptable. There's a Venn diagram. So think of a Venn diagram and whether that's quick, easy grace or quick, resourceful and adaptable you're right there in the middle. It's basically all those things but quickness is an important part of it.

And of course, AI can help us be quicker for certain things. Yesterday someone was showing me a video, there's a service, which literally you can speak, let's say in English, so let's say you're speaking for five minutes about some topic in English, and it will basically give you the video of you talking in Spanish and Mandarin.

Maybe you've seen this, and it literally makes your lips look exactly like they would look if they're speaking that language. There's some phenomenal things coming out with AI, think about how much time would it take to do something like that without AI?

It's phenomenal some of the things that it can do. At the same time, there's also the scary things it does. There's the story of the AI reached out to TaskRabbit to do something. And it was to read something out loud. And the task rabbit said not knowing it was an AI was saying why do you need me to do this?

And it said I'm visually impaired which of course is actually true , but it was able to then pay the task rabbit to read something out loud. Think about that. That's an AI getting a human to do something so what could happen going forward with AI is wild to think of everyone ought to be looking at it and studying it and understanding how it could be used, to be helpful. You can't even avoid it now. And LinkedIn, as you're typing an entry in LinkedIn, it said, do you want AI to make this a little better?

And I've been playing with that. Sometimes AI makes my sentences better. It's not bad. Of course I can reject them and go back to my original so it's everywhere. It's going to be everywhere. And I think it is going to make things quicker. Now in the book joy of agility, I talk about the John Wooden mantra, which is that John Wooden was his famous hall of fame basketball player and coach.

And he would say, be quick, but don't hurry. So if AI is encouraging us to hurry. That hurrying may lead to mistakes or to problems. And if they're costly problems, then it's a real issue. Is it helping us be quick or is it helping us hurry? We have to be a little careful there. 

So I think as long as you keep that in mind that's a big part of it. But if you can adapt to your environment, quicker and, just be more adaptive because of AI. I'm all for it. It's a great new tool. Gary Vaynerchuk talks about the plow and when the plow came along, farming changed forever and jobs probably were lost, but what are you going to do today?

You're going to say, Oh, we don't use plows. We don't believe in plowing. You cannot stop. Technology from advancing. So we have to learn what it can do for us and remain safe in terms of what we don't want it to do for us. 

[00:10:28] Mahan Tavakoli: Now, experimentation plays a role in that be quick. Would love to get your thoughts and experiences in how can organizations and teams Build experimentation in a way where they can be quick and adaptable without hurrying and making those big mistakes that you talk about. 

[00:10:48] Joshua Kerievsky: Any organization that's not continuously experimenting, I think, is in trouble.

A lot of times companies are just so busy. They're so busy with the business. That they don't even have time to experiment. That's a dangerous situation to get into. To me, that's an indication that you're trying to do too many things at once. There needs to be the right balance there.

There's another thing I learned from John Wooden. I learned a lot about agility. It turns out from a basketball coach all the years I've spent in the software industry and applying lean and agile concepts to my work. In some sense, I could say I've learned more from John Wooden and how he trained athletes to be agile.

But he would obsess over balance. He would say that in order to be really successful, you'd have to be balanced physically, mentally, and emotionally, on the basketball court. Then you'd need balance on your offensive team, on your defensive team. Why do I bring that up?

If you're not experimenting enough, it may indicate an imbalance in your organization. With respect to, doing versus learning, and maybe you got to get that balance to be better so that you're continuously learning and trying new things. 

There's another mantra in the book called be poised to adapt, and that means that you have prepared you're ready to adapt, you've worked on it, you will not be poised to adopt if you're not, learning and experimenting and being aware of what's going on in the world, like AI and how you could potentially use it in your business. So this comes down to the basics, be quick, but don't hurry, be balanced and graceful, be poised to adapt.

Those are the three of the six mantras, and right there alone, you've got a lot on your plate to try to master those. 

[00:12:34] Mahan Tavakoli:  It is a challenge to master them. I also had a conversation with a good friend of mine that has a best selling book, The Performance Paradox, and he talks about the paradox of when we are to perform. We don't take the time to learn. There's time to focus on learning and there are times to focus on performance . 

Now you've had decades long experience seeing teams and organizations do this. Where have you seen and how have you seen these ideas implemented? 

[00:13:06] Joshua Kerievsky: Yeah, great question. So in the best situations we've worked with executives who are interested in really making a change happen.

So there's something called agile in name only where you're just playing around. It's lipstick on a pig, it's not real agile. But in the cases where we've had really sincere executives wanting to do this for real we've come in, we've done a brief assessment to figure out what's going on in the org.

And then we've given some advice and in the cases where we've had the most success, they actually listen to us. And that is how can we work in a quick, easy and graceful way, how can we be quick, resourceful and adaptable? And it's applying a bunch of practices to those words, the words lead you, but ultimately what you implement are. practices that you've come to find deliver the goods. 

[00:13:55] Mahan Tavakoli: One of those practices is one of the mantras you mentioned, start minimally and evolve. 

[00:14:02] Joshua Kerievsky: Absolutely. You could look at a gorgeous painting by Picasso, oil on canvas. And most often, there'll be some sketch, or there'll be some series of sketches that he did very quickly and refined the sketches.

The sketches... Where was that minimum thing that he started with, right? We say, start minimal and evolve. That's Picasso. Now, not every team is Picasso, but the concept is exactly the same. Start with the sort of embryonic version, and, Get your sense around that.

It is a form of risk management because Picasso doesn't want to paint some giant oil on canvas painting that's actually not very good. So he needs to learn rapidly about what he's doing there. And that's that rapid learning that has to happen in this kind of a world.

So evolutionary design is a term we use, we think of as evolutionary design. We are starting with a primitive version and evolving it. This is a wonderful way to get people to collaborate as well. We call it a walking skeleton, a sketch is like a walking skeleton. 

In a software system, it's, hey, the system can do the most basic thing. Let's say it's a rental car system, it needs to support all kinds of complex scenarios for renting cars, but great, so The first thing we create is the most basic. I can only rent one kind of car from one location and return it to that location.

And that's all I can do. You're not going to ship that to production and have people really use it unless there's value there. Okay, maybe if there's value there, go for it. But it's the beginning. You've got all the parts and pieces, you have all the testing in place. You have this mechanism for deploying it to production, even though you might not make it public yet.

Everything's there. Everyone's learned how to collaborate. It's going into a kitchen and, okay, we experiment. We can work as a team to produce a dish. Now we've got to think how are we going to make a whole feast for a big crowd. That's another story. I'm going to grow to that. But start with the basics.

Start minimal and evolve. That's the mantra. 

[00:16:05] Mahan Tavakoli: And in doing that, one of the things you emphasize in the book is the importance of driving out fear. I think a lot of us believe we are better at that than we really are. When I have conversations with CEOs and executives, they say, Oh, that's not an issue in my organization.

But then when you start having conversations, the reality is different. So how can. Leaders of organizations drive out the kind of fear that lends itself to the experimentation that is important to agile. 

[00:16:37] Joshua Kerievsky: Great question again. Yeah. Fear is toxic to productivity and toxic to high performance.

And there's healthy fear, right? There's the Wright brothers when they were basically experimenting on their airplane with their hero. Was this German guy who was called the father of gliding experiments? He was gliding off of mountains and flying back then it coincided with cameras and photographs.

So he was all over the world, pictures of this guy flying, but he did die and he died because he didn't have sufficient control over his glider. And so when the Wright brothers started to work on the airplane, their father, who at this point was a widower, basically said, please be safe. I don't want to lose you too.

And so all their experiments were done in a very safe way, very low to the ground. Anytime there was anything that was going to endanger them, they quickly put it to an end. So there has to be safety if there's going to be high performance and you're right, most executives, myself sometimes included.

Think that things are safer than they are. And in fact, people in general are nervous. They have anxiety. And even your customers do about your service, or if you're selling, they're like, I don't know if I trust this company. So how can I drive out fear in this sales situation? How can I drive out fear with my employees who might be concerned about their jobs or they disagreed with an executive. 

Oh no, what's going to happen now? That is going to limit them from speaking. If they're afraid to speak, this is psychological safety. And a lot of wonderful experts speak about that, including professor Amy Edmondson. It's a battle. There's no place that is perfect safety, but working on it, focusing on it is very valuable. 

[00:18:26] Mahan Tavakoli: It is really important, and I love that example that you give as the Wright brothers had to do, of the safety, at the same time, the willingness to continually experiment and have those experiments fail.

As you said, it's a push and pull, but the ability to determine what are the things that we are not willing to sacrifice on, and where are we willing to experiment learn and grow as a result. 

[00:18:56] Joshua Kerievsky: A lot of your experiments are going to fail, and it is hard. We just did an experiment, a marketing experiment. I have to say, there's probably some success that came out of it, but the primary hypothesis failed. And that was, several people in my organization working for several weeks on something, and, we spent a little bit of money, not a lot, but it didn't have the outcome I expected.

And that is humbling, but you say congratulations, folks. We tried something and it failed and let's go back and try something else.

[00:19:35] Mahan Tavakoli: Good for you, Josh, for serving as an example of what you talk about as well, , It sucks failing. You don't come up with a hypothesis and spend a lot of time, effort and energy trying to do something for it to fail.

However, failure is an option. A lot of times what I find in organizations at all levels, people try to mask. the failure into a success because at the beginning they thought it would be a success. So rather than focusing on the lessons learned with humility saying this didn't turn out how we wanted it and moving on, especially when the experiments are smaller.

That is what makes you agile and adaptable. 

[00:20:20] Joshua Kerievsky: That's right. And I'll say that there's a term that's used sometimes is this toxic positivity, which is everything's a success. And, you can never say something like... Actually, it didn't go according to plan. We didn't succeed. And it's not black and white either, right?

Like I know that this marketing campaign did lead to some good things. We had some external folks praising us and stuff like that. It just didn't lead to the sales conversations. I wanted it to generate, did not do that. It absolutely did not do that. And we've been really clear.

About that fact but that's the thing you can't be too positive or just completely negative either, which, is a downer, you've got to find a way to be balanced about that and then bounce back and go, okay, what's the next experiment we're going to try, and that's an ongoing thing. I do find these agile mantras. Are helpful in my life in work and in many aspects of just what I'm doing on the tennis court. The mantras are there raising my kids and being a dad. The mantras are there fixing things up around the house. The mantras are there. I want to be quick, but I don't want to hurry.

During the pandemic, we decided to build a little working shed in the backyard. And I was very busy. And so I wasn't as involved in the project. And my colleagues were there. And we just decided, all right, let's put it in the far right corner of the backyard and there'll be a nice space for you to hang out and stuff.

It's okay, let's just do that. And sure enough, they laid concrete and this is in the back of the house. They lay concrete. They're putting up the frame of the shed. And then I look out of one of my daughter's windows.

And I'm like, Oh my God, this is like obscuring her view. This is going to be terrible. She's going to look out the window and see, a wall like about three feet away. It's no good. I had to say to the contractors, I need you to move this so that it's more in the middle of the backyard and it won't obscure anyone's view.

That was a 3, 000 mistake. And if I'd been smarter, we could have just put up some cardboard and said let's get a feel for what it's going to be like, let's just put some cardboard up and just get a feel we would have failed much faster, much cheaper and decided don't put it there.

So I hurried too much and I just was like, wow, too busy, just go for it. So the mantras apply to a variety of things in life. If you really start to dig into them. 

[00:22:45] Mahan Tavakoli:  I love the examples you use, especially this one, Josh, because typically when we would think about.

minimum viable product, project, in this instance, we might've thought about, okay, you're building the shed in one corner it's not possible to first build a little shed in another corner. But what you're saying is if you really think about it, maybe with cardboard, you could represent that shed and the blockage of the view of that shed.

So that takes a little thinking. It's not a minimum viable product. You're not building the shed, but you're building a representation of it, which is exactly what organizations can do with a lot of their 

[00:23:29] Joshua Kerievsky: projects. That is absolutely right. Yes. There's a whole bunch of really wonderful books in this topic.

A lean startup gets into this. Testing business ideas, another wonderful book filled with a catalog of ways to fake and test business ideas before investing a tremendous amount of money. But it's a very smart way to work and it's well worth studying. In fact, my book Joy of agility points to a lot of other books for you to read.

So unfortunately, if you don't like books it's a problem because I recommend a lot of great books that you should study. And these things, they pay huge dividends. If you can learn how to learn faster and cheaper, like we call it quick, cheap experiments. You will be adapting much faster and you will be a lot happier.

[00:24:14] Mahan Tavakoli: And in your book, you also share a lot of great examples of companies succeeding with agility. Josh, what role in your view does leadership play in the successes that both you share in the book and you have seen throughout your experience? 

[00:24:30] Joshua Kerievsky: First of all, I've been running my own company for 27 years.

So I'm in that leadership position and leaders bring a tremendous amount of context and understanding to any initiative. So I am not one of these rabid self organization people. You get some folks that I think they've been scarred by some kinds of experiences in the past where they don't want management or leadership to come anywhere near them.

Just leave us alone. The only way this is going to work is if we are on our own doing our thing, you leave us alone. I think that's too extreme. I think, again, got back to balance, right? What's a balanced team? You need the perspective of leaders and management. Whether that's giving them a financial perspective or giving a competitive analysis of the competition out there,

let's understand why are we even doing this? There's some degree of autonomy that is needed. I just think that it has to be the right balance of autonomy with safeguards or, Just a little bit of a more of a balance. They're not rabid self organization, but self organization with.

guardrails with understanding, with collaboration with the right people. 

[00:25:46] Mahan Tavakoli: I absolutely love that, Josh, and couldn't agree with you more in that many of us have seen and have experienced the hierarchical industrial age mindset. Set and some people have jumped to the opposite extreme, whether call it holacracy or, I like the servant leadership mindset the way it's talked about I've had conversations with Ken Blanchard, including for podcasts but people misunderstand it and then therefore make the value of leadership less significant than it should be. It's neither hierarchical where a smart person is sitting on top of a hierarchy. Telling everyone else what to do, and it's not people in a holacracy doing whatever they think and self organizing.

For most organizations, there is a balance in the middle where there is value that leadership brings and there's an engagement insights and involvement that the team members bring. 

[00:26:47] Joshua Kerievsky: Yes, a hundred percent. And going back to the experimentation discussion, I try to include examples in the book of situations where Maybe leaders got in the way of something.

 But there was an experimentation culture in place that allowed something to happen. Here's a quick story. A summer intern at Amazon years ago, this is many years ago, he observed that at checkout time, there wasn't any kind of upsell in terms of selling a few items that, you know, so when you go to the grocery store, they've got the candy and the magazines when you're at the checkout line, right?

And this young summer intern thought, wow, we're missing an opportunity here to just sell a few items right there at checkout. In fact, it's better than a grocery store because we know what's in your cart digitally. And we can recommend some complimentary products to potentially buy in the last minute there.

He brought up the idea and it was shot down by an executive. An executive said, Nope, during checkout is the most important time. We don't want to bother anyone with any things. We just want them to finish checking out and give us the money. And summer intern was like, that's crazy. So because Amazon had an experimentation environment, you could literally write some code.

And try it out in a very internal system with simulators. He wrote that code, wrote it really fast, tried it out. And it was very promising in terms of the kind of money it showed it could generate enough so that he was able to try the experiment on a tiny percentage of real customers. Now that experiment showed that they could make a tremendous amount of money from this idea.

And once that was proven, the executive was a little pissed off that this occurred, but no one could deny that this was a fantastic idea. And they did create a team and they made it happen. Even to this day, it'll prompt you on Amazon to buy a few items related to your purchases.

That's a story where. Executive had their say, they tried to shut it down, but the culture allowed the experimentation to happen anyway. Which to me is a very healthy thing because, hey, executives can be wrong. Managers can be wrong. You want to have an environment where people can be empowered to try some experiments and just see what happens.

This is not to say exclude leaders and managers, right? Because that's terrible. That does not work either. You got to get , the right formula there. Now that's not so easily done. Amazon invested time to create these simulated environments to make it easy to experiment.

You could say they were poised to adapt because they invested money to make experimentation relatively easy to do. Most organizations don't do that. They don't have easy ways to experiment or cheap ways to experiment. So you gotta really walk the talk if you want to be high performing.

[00:29:34] Mahan Tavakoli: That's a brilliant insight. And I would encourage all of our listeners to also think about in their organization or their team, who their customers are, potential customers, potential market and what are ways to experiment or find avenues for experimentation at low risk, potentially high reward, if the experimentation works.

Because I found more people, Josh, coming up with reasons and excuses why they can't experiment. We work in a government agency we can't experiment. We are in a regulated industry, we can't experiment. We are fill in the blank, everyone says why they can't experiment, but there are always opportunities to experiment with very low risk interactions.

[00:30:26] Joshua Kerievsky: aBsolutely. And in fact, it's vital. It's absolutely vital to be a high performer. I've learned this in tennis. If you're playing someone that's better than you, you're going to need to experiment to try to find their weaknesses. And it's a series of hypotheses and experiments. Oh what if I try that?

 You may not be trying to do things in business to hurt your competitors, but you have to be experimenting. You gotta be continually doing that.

So I say, watch out for being so busy. that you don't even have time to experiment. That's a very common problem. 

[00:30:59] Mahan Tavakoli: It is. And a part of what you mentioned, is that It does take some time for us to reflect on how we can become more agile, and I appreciate the thoughts you have shared in the book as well, Josh.

Would love to know are there any practices you typically find yourself recommending as leaders of teams and organizations want to develop more agile thinking for themselves or their teams? 

[00:31:27] Joshua Kerievsky: I'm a big fan of study groups or book clubs, 

I think it's very valuable to study great books and, just look for the best books out there and study them and try to grow the organization that way, you'll get all kinds of ideas by studying great books. So to me, there are the scholars of the world, where you're a continuous student.

And I think the best organizations, the best leaders are creating environments where we can be continuous students instead of just racing to get everything done all the time. Yes, you have to go quickly to be competitive in this landscape, but don't go so fast. That you're not learning. 

There's good slow and bad slow. And the bad slow is when you're making people wait. There's lots of delays. It's just Not where high performance good slow is where you're deliberately slowing down to sharpen that saw and, begin to make big leaps of progress, whether it's using a I or getting psychological safety in place.

Or really, truly understanding agility so that you're not just following this ritualistic framework. I like to say, by the way, Agile is still in the early days. You may think it's been around 20 years in the software field, but it's in the early days of our consciousness in terms of applying it to our work and to our lives.

We're still in the early days of appreciating how to do that and understand that. So yeah I think a major practice is to continuously study, great literature. 

[00:32:59] Mahan Tavakoli: In studying Agile your book is an outstanding place to start.

How can the audience find out more about you, Josh, and your book? 

[00:33:11] Joshua Kerievsky: Joyofagility. com is a website we made for the book, so there's a free sample chapter you can download and there's some videos you can watch and a few other things about the book there. So you can contact me on that website.

I'm also on industrialogic. com. You can find me there on the people side. I'm on LinkedIn, very active on LinkedIn. So happy to talk there or answer questions. And it's a pleasure speaking with you, Mahan, on this wonderful podcast you have. Thank you again for having me.

[00:33:42] Mahan Tavakoli: I really appreciate your insights, Josh. I love the book, Joy of Agility, and I love your joy for agility and really appreciate you taking the time to share it with me and the partnering leadership 

[00:33:56] Joshua Kerievsky: audience.

Thank you so much. I couldn't appreciate it anymore. Thank you.