01 Becoming a better leader through adversity with Mary Abbajay | Greater Washington DC DMV Changemaker

Mahan Tavakoli: Welcome to Partnering Leadership. This week, our guest is Mary Abbajay, author of the bestselling book Managing up. Now, in this episode, we don't spend much time talking about her wonderful book. Some point in the future, we will do that. But in this episode, we talk about Mary's own leadership journey.

Some of the challenges all along the way from her childhood. Onto the point when she decided to run a bar and nightclub in DC and eventually start her own consultancy. So listen in and learn from Mary Abbajay's leadership journey. And to share your comments and thoughts, join us at partneringleadership.com.

Mahan Tavakoli: Mary Abbajay, welcome to Partnering Leadership. So excited to have you. 

Mary Abbajay: I am so excited to be here and really flattered and honored Mahan. I mean, any chance to talk with you is a delight, but this is really cool to be a guest on your show. 

Mahan Tavakoli: Thank you so much, Mary. You know, you are known around town now for the great work you've done with managing up and your book, which you've done a fabulous job, but what people might not know is Mary Abbajay story and also the leadership successes that you've had. So I'm hoping over time the next half hour or so, we get a chance to get to know Mary Abbajay and your leadership journey a little bit better. 

Mary Abbajay: Gird your loins people, you may not like it.

Mahan Tavakoli: They will love it. 

Mahan Tavakoli: So Mary, growing up has an influence on all of us. Whereabouts did you grow up and how has that impacted who you've become 

Mary Abbajay: I hail from the fair city of Toledo, Ohio in the Midwest. I often call it the other armpit next to Cleveland of Ohio. You know, I actually think it had quite an impact on me growing up.

My father was a first generation American, of Arabic and Lebanese descent or half. My grandmother was Lebanese. My grandfather was Syrian. Both of my parents grew up really, really poor. My mom was some American mutt sort of thing. They grew up very, very poor and my father was an entrepreneur.

He always had his own business. He owned a nightclub. My mother was a stay at home mom until I was in the fourth grade. And she's back at me one day and she's like, this sucks. So she goes, and she goes to the hospital because she had been a nurse when she married my father and she got a job within five years.

She's director of all of nursing in Toledo, Ohio, so the hospital, the biggest hospital in Toledo. So, you know, I had two really great parents. There were four of us kids. It was world war three all the time. And my parents didn't step in when the kids were fighting and we were always fighting.

It was all about like, settle your own differences. And so being a middle child, I had to navigate all that stuff. So it was a great place to grow up and I never, ever wanted to live there again. The minute I turned 16, I got a job so I could make money, go off to college and leave. Leave the Midwest. I'm an East coast girl at heart.

Mahan Tavakoli: So what was that first job? 

Mary Abbajay: Oh, my very first job was at little Caesar's pizza pizza, and it was one of those carry out ones where you make the pizza, people come pick it up, or I think we delivered, I can't remember, I never got the delivery and it was literally five blocks from my house and I loved every second of it.

And I remember - so this was in the old, this was last century - so the pizza ovens were real ovens. Like you had to shovel them in and shovel them out and they never let me run the ovens. 

And I kept saying, well, “Why? I'm 16 years old, I want to run the oven.” 

So they said, Mary, “Girls don't run the ovens. It's too dangerous.” 

And I said, well, “That is just sexist and unfair.” This is 1982, mind you. 

And so they're like, “Alright, you want to run the ovens? Have at it.” 

Oh my God. I had burns up and down my arms on both sides, but I ran those ovens and I was really good at it. And so that lesson was be careful what you ask for you just might get it.

Mahan Tavakoli: Well, then I think you were a leader from early days of your teenage years. 

Now, Mary, one of the things I understand about you is you had also had Bell's palsy as a teenager. 

Mary Abbajay: Yes. Yeah. So, for those people who don't know what Bell's palsy is, Bell's palsy is basically a paralysis of the face. And I got it my eighth grade year in  junior high. I basically woke up one morning and half of my face - this half, was basically paralyzed and really paralyzed. I mean, I looked like a stroke victim. 

And, it was pretty traumatic because I mean, think of how you are. You're 14 and 15 in the eighth grade, you're just discovering boys, boys, and girls are discovering each other. And I look like a freak show, and so I had to start high school with that. And people used to make so much fun of me constantly. 

They'd go poke me in the face and say, “Hey, frozen face, hey frozen face.”  

And it was really traumatic and very difficult, but I learned a couple of good things happened from it. 

One, is my father had to pick me up from school early every day and I had to get an electric shock on my face. I had it very, very severely and they actually didn't think it was going to ever come back, and so that was really nice cause my dad and I got to hang out a lot together so that was fun. 

And the other thing was I realized. I was kind of looking like a freak show. So being popular with boys or being a popular girl wasn't going to cut it, no one wanted to hang out with me. So I had to rely on my wits, and started to play sports more. And I just figured I was just going to have to figure out who my friends really were.

And I was gonna have to rely more on having a good personality, being smart and being athletic to make my way. So it slowly came back. But you could still see, if I'll show you, if I pucker up, you'll see this eye closed. And if I raise my eyebrow, you'll see this. And it's made me fairly self-conscious most of my life about this.

Mahan Tavakoli: Mary, what a magnificent story. 

This is a time where we talk about resilience and taking advantage of the opportunities that the setbacks provide. So that by itself has made you a stronger person. It sounds like as a result.

Mary Abbajay: Yeah, it made me focus on what's important. And it was hard.

And you know, when I look back over the things that've been hard and challenging over my life, I think every one of them is a blessing in disguise in some way. 

Not to be too cliche, but really challenges, setbacks, failures, heartache, heartbreak, these all carry within them opportunities for you to really determine who you are and what you're made of. And you get to choose how you want to respond to it. So I think it's helped make me a very resilient person. 

My husband and I always joke around who's more resilient. And I say, “I'm like a cockroach, honey. I'm so resilient. I am going to - you throw it at me - I mean, I like it, but I will find a way to survive through it.”

Mahan Tavakoli: That is fabulous. That is excellent. 

Now how does this young, strong willed woman growing up in Cleveland - 

Mary Abbajay: Toledo - 

Mahan Tavakoli: Toledo

Mary Abbajay: -other armpit 

Mahan Tavakoli: - end up coming to DC at running a bar in a nightclub. 

Mary Abbajay: Well, I got out of Toledo as quickly as I could.

So I went to college and I can remember being really embarrassed that I was from Toledo. So I'd never liked to tell anybody I was. And then I've suddenly decided one day, I'm just going to be honest. I'm from Toledo. Like that's all there is. 

I actually came to DC via Boston. I'd gone to Boston first and my mom died. My mom died a couple of weeks after I graduated from college and she had had terminal cancer. So we had known this was going to happen. So my first couple of years, all I wanted to do was get away from my family away from everybody. It was just so much heartbreak and heartache. 

So I went to Boston for a couple of years, great town, loved it. But I didn't really, I didn't really make any friends there. And so my sister was living in Washington, DC so I thought, well, I'm going to move to California cause that's my kind of place, but I'm going to stop off in DC first and to see my sister and I literally put in one resume for a job at the Capitol Children's Museum to be their director of public relations, which of course I had no experience doing and they hired me.

And so, that's how I started in DC. Then from there, I worked for John Wilson, the chairman of the city council, and very sadly he hanged himself. So it was then that we decided, you know what, and I've had a bunch of really awful bosses, and I thought, you know what? I could be an awful boss to myself. So my sister and I opened up a bar in Adams Morgan called the Toledo lounge. Hail hail, all Toledo!

 And you know, I don't know if you knew Joe Englert who recently  passed away. Joe Englert was the icon of the nightclub business. Well, he was our kind of lucky godfather. He's the one that said to us, you girls should open a bar and here's where you're going to do it. And he held our hand the whole way. 

Mahan Tavakoli: And I imagined all the conversations you had at the bar helped set you up for a career in consulting. 

Mary Abbajay: Yes, they did, because here's what I realized. So, the bar was - we were so lucky the bar was super, super successful. And so then we opened a nightclub, another place down the street, a nightclub.It was super successful. But I gotta tell you in my heart, it was boring. Like it was so boring. I mean, everyone thinks it's so fun to own a bar. 

Here's what it's like every day. You walk in and you ask yourself these three questions, “What's broken? Who's not showing up for work and how much are both those things going to cost me today?”

That's the gist of your life. But what I discovered I liked was, you know, by hook or by crook, we just were very successful. 

People used to come and ask me, “How did you do that? How do you do that? How do you do this? How do you do that?” 

And I thought, “Wow! it's really fun to help other people think through how to be successful.”

And so when I finally said to my sister, “I'm done with this bar.” 

It was consulting that I went into because that really gives me joy, is to help other people find their success or their special sauce or something like that. 

Mahan Tavakoli: And when you started consulting, did you go right into organizational consulting or was there a specific type of consulting you went into?

Mary Abbajay: So I had many darkness of the soul, so I'm a workaholic in order to feel good about my life. I need to be contributing to the world. And so it was very tough, I didn't know what to do. 

I actually randomly found this ad in the paper for - I thought for a while I wanted to be a life coach or this or that, sociology psychology. I didn’t know what I wanted to do - but I found an ad on the Washington Post from Georgetown University for their organizational development certificate program. And I thought that sounds interesting. So I did that, and fell in love with it. And then I later find out the only reason they let me in is because they'd never had a bar owner apply before. So, which is great, fell in love with that, and then went on and got a coaching certificate.

Then we had got a masters in organizational management, so it was always, certified facilitator, all that. So I slowly started building my practice, kind of as an individual cause I still had the bar.

And then it started a company. So it was always organizational consulting groups, teams, and to some extent, individuals.

Mahan Tavakoli: And Mary, as you were setting up your own consulting practice, what was the biggest struggle you had running that business as a leader? 

Mary Abbajay: I think for people who, you'll know this, I think the thing that entrepreneurs have to think about is you have to sell, everything is selling and it was so hard for you, Mahan, to actually sell myself. Because when you own your own, when you own a bar, you're selling the bar, who cares? You know. But when you have to sell yourself, I found that really, really, really, really hard. I still do. 

In fact, a couple of years ago after joining Leadership Greater Washington, and meeting tons of amazing people, a couple of years ago, we were doing something and somebody who's known me forever said “Mary, I thought you did public relations?” 

And I'm like, “Why would you think that?” 

And I realized, I don't tell people what I do. So it was, it's so ridiculous. So I think knowing that you have to sell and that people are buying you. 

And one of my Leadership Greater Washington classmates, Steve Stanton once said to me, “Mary, you're going to have to hear a lot of no's. In fact, you want to get no's.”

And I'm like, “I wonder if he knows.” 

But it's like the whole idea. I think that was the hardest thing for me is wrapping my head around that part of it. 

Mahan Tavakoli: Mary, that's such great advice and I can totally relate to it because there are a lot of people I know that like me a lot, we have great relationships and have had for many years.

They are, sometimes they tell me, “So what is it that exactly you do again?” 

Because a lot of times it's really hard as a consultant. Part of what you have to do is to be able to promote yourself, not just the fear of rejection, but it is that you are a brand. 

Now you've done a fabulous job with that, but it's obvious that it has taken work. It sounds like an advice from a lot of great people. 

Mary Abbajay: Well, you know, like when you talk to someone about their work or their job, I get so excited. ‘Cause I want to learn, I ask them all these questions and I learn a lot. But it never occurs to me to turn around and tell them, you know, A - why I'm curious and B - what I do.

Cause you know how it is, Mahan. You're so interested in hearing about people, y'all want to talk about yourself. 

Mahan Tavakoli: You know, one of the things that is fabulous about you Mary, is that you are not just a consultant with advice. You're also a leader that has been able to lead organizations and I'm most impressed with the fact that you rose up through the ranks in Leadership Greater Washington to become board chair.

First let me know why and what drove you to join the board and how did you become the board chair? 

Mary Abbajay: So Leadership Greater Washington has just been like a gift to me in so many ways. 

I got elected as my class rep, so the class always elects two people. And so I was a class rep, which is a one year board term. And then they asked me to stay on and then I just kept getting reelected. 

And then, because I'm always like, “I'll do that. I'll do that. I'll help with that.” I didn't have very much money at the time. So I wasn't writing big checks. I was doing a lot of big work, so I helped to guide and lead the youth leadership program for a couple of years. 

I served on the membership committee. I did the adult signature program for a couple of years as a facilitator. I did the start of the rising leaders program, which I love. So I basically served on every committee, led every program just about, except for the development committee - I'm not good at asking for money. And then they asked me to be chair elect, and then they asked me to be chair. So it was, I think I was on that board for almost 12 years. 

Mahan Tavakoli: So one of the incredible things about you, Mary, is that a lot of times people decide to do their duty at LGW, under board, as board chair, but you decided to shake things up.

So I'm curious why you decided to do that. What gave you the courage to do it? And then the process you went through to shake things up.

Mary Abbajay: So what Mahan is talking about for those who don't know is we had a long time leader who was beloved by many people, and it was time actually for new leadership for a whole host of reasons.

You know, one of which I think was just the sheer nature of when he was starting, he was very young and there were just a lot of people who weren't ever going to see him as that next level. 

So you have a lot of board, the board was constantly second guessing this leader constantly just on his toes, it was like a whiplash. So something needed to change. So, the board decided that we needed a change in leadership. So I led a transition from a very beloved leader into a new leadership. It was one of the most difficult things ever. So depending on who you were, I was either the goat or the hero.

There were a lot of people where to this day, think I am devil incarnate. And there are a lot of people to this day that think I did the greatest thing ever, but the truth is it wasn't me that did it. It was the board, it was all, it was so many people. 

And one of the big lessons I learned when it became clear that transition had to happen, it's very different heading up a membership organization or nonprofit than your own business. For it wasn't about me, what I want. It is about getting a consensus from the board, getting consensus from the membership, really reaching out and having other people help gain their opinion, being vulnerable, saying to people, “I don't know how to do this. I've never done this. I don't know that I want to do it.” 

It was hard. And I think one of the things that I really learned was asking for help. I mean, Mahan, the people that helped me were unbelievable and I’m talking about leaders way above my station in life, way above me, people with the gravitas that I barely even didn't think they knew who I was, we're so generous with their time and their wisdom and their knowledge. So that was a big lesson asking for help. And, you know, doing the hard thing is hard. 

Mahan Tavakoli: It really is, and it takes courage. 

And Mary, as you said, part of the whole basis of this podcast is that leadership is a partnership and that you do need the people on the board, in the organization, the people you're leading, to be able to contribute and support you. But there does need to be a vision, the courage that you as a leader, need to bring to the table to move the organization forward. 

And looking back on it, five, six years later, the organization's membership is very engaged. You have record numbers of members and record numbers of programs, even through the pandemic. Thanks to the courageous decision that you, the other board members and the people that supported you took five plus years ago.

Mary Abbajay: I'm blushing. Thank you. Yeah. You know, I will say I'm very proud of it. 

When that happened, I had just bought out my partner, my consulting business. So I was trying to navigate being a solo consulting owner. With that, there are days Mahan, I'm not going to lie, many days where I woke up - it was like Holly Hunter in broadcast news - I'd wake up, I'd cry for 10 minutes. And then I plugged my phone back on and get on with my day. And even to this day I feel pride, but I feel guilt and sadness because a transition means someone transitioned out and that person was such a good person. Love him to this day. And you know, you can't make change without breaking some eggs. And that's still heartbreaking for me. 

Mahan Tavakoli: So based on that experience, Mary, that was difficult but did result in the right outcome for the organization and the long term success of the organization. 

What leadership advice would you have for those listening on how they should approach similar challenges? 

Mary Abbajay: I say, you know, you got to trust that gut, that instinct that says this is the right thing to do.

You just, you know it, when you know it and you've got to do something. Build a coalition around you, build some support, don't be afraid to ask for help. Make sure you're really clear about the vision. Take your time with large things like this. Don't go like a bull in the China shop.

Make sure you have your pieces in place, make sure you think about it from both in terms of organizational culture, from legal terms, from all sorts of things. But make sure that you are bringing people along with you and that you are partnering with people to make great big changes happen and listen for feedback.

People gave me a lot of feedback. Some of it was right on the money, some of it was worthless. Some of that was in the middle. But you want to take it all in and reflect on it. And I always would ask myself, “Am I being logical or am I being emotional?” And I am not the person that thinks all decisions should be logical.

Sometimes a little kindness, compassion go a long way. So it's a lot of self reflection and then, take five minutes to cry every morning, that got me through it. 

Mahan Tavakoli: That's great advice to be in touch with your humanity as you're leading. 

Now, post-LGW, you decided to take on a book project and write a book.

What got into you to do that? 

Mary Abbajay: I have a very unusual book story. So I've never wanted to write a book. I don't really think of myself as an author or a writer. I didn't even particularly like writing. 

But one day, I got a call from the publisher called Wiley Publishing - And I got an email actually, and this woman said, “I would like to talk with you about doing a book.” 

And I'm thinking, “Yeah, right.” Like this is some self publishing scam they got going on, you know? 

And so I remember I'm folding laundry while I'm talking to her and she's like giving me this whole rigmarole about what amazing things writing a book is, does for you and blah, blah, blah. 

And I said, “Janine, I'm just going to cut to the chase here.” So I'm trying to be all tough. “How much is this going to cost me?” 

And she goes, “Mary, we’re Wiley, we don't charge our authors. Don't you know who we are?” 

And I was like, “Oh wait, wait, wait. Yes I know who you are”

So anyway, I still can't remember how she found me. I blocked it out, but then I said no to her. 

I said, “I can't do it right now. I had just put my father into assisted living back in Ohio, into Toledo. So I'm literally flying back and forth from Toledo to DC every couple of weeks because I'm the medical power of everything.” 

Or was, you know what, and that was really hard for me to say, I'm weak. I can't do it. I've got this big family thing going on. 

And she said to me, “You know what, I just went through this with my mother. So how about I call you back in four months?”

 And I thought, “Wow, I'll never hear from you again.”

Four months later, She calls me back, says, “Are you ready to do that book?” 

And I was like, “Oh, damn it.”

And I try to get out of it. And everyone on my team and my family said, “What's wrong with you? You have to write that book.”

 So that's how it came about. So the book is Managing up and I decided to write something that I know. And we've been teaching a class on Managing up as one of my favorite classes for eight, 10 years. And I feel very strongly about it. And I looked around like what am I going to write about. There's a gazillion five books on leading. But there's very little on how to be the leadee, how to be a good follower, how to manage up. So that's what I did. It's been super fun. 

Oh, and here's the other fun thing. You'll love this story. 

So when I decided to write the book, I needed stories about managing up on different bosses. So I sent out, you know, emails to everyone I knew, and I got all these real life stories. So a lot of my friends are in the book, but they don't know it. A boss. 

I was talking to Jen Connor from the business journal. She was looking at it. 

She's like “Mary, this is like a murder mystery. Like I know people in this book don’t I?”

And I said, “Jen, I will never tell but yes, you do.”

Mahan Tavakoli: That is great. Now I'm going to look at it. I'm going to reread the book with a different eye, Mary.

Mary Abbajay: You can find some of our mutual friends in their mind.

Mahan Tavakoli: But actually it is a fabulous book. And I've referred the book with respect to the content, but also I think the title and the branding is right on target. 

The Managing up tells you who it's for, what they're going to achieve. So I think it's brilliant branding, brilliant book, and you've done a fabulous job with it, Mary.

Mary Abbajay: Thank you. And you know, the thing about the book that, you know, it could be subtitled “Shut the front door up, and stop complaining and start doing something about it.” 

Because really the idea is I think that's my whole shtick in life is, stop complaining, figure a way out, figure a way to make this work, whether it's a relationship with your boss or whether it's whatever you have going on with your life, figure it out.

Mahan Tavakoli: Now Mary, you are anyone that looks at you sees tremendous success whether as a person that runs a successful consulting firm, has a bestselling book, has led one of the most influential organizations in this region and led it superbly to the success it has had. 

Now I'm surprised to hear that every once in a while you might even feel imposter syndrome.

Mary Abbajay: Oh my God, every once in a while, every day of my life, I feel like an imposter. Every day of my life. 

And I've had this, I think, ever since. I think it's always with us, it's always with me. I feel like I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. Someday people are going to figure out she's just full of it or how she - I have the imposter syndrome very badly.

And it's interesting. I like to hear people talk about that because I'm so surprised when I hear other people have it. 

I think that's been the biggest setback for me is I still - even with all these successes. I'm like, well, who would really want my book or who really wants me to keynote? I keynote at Sherman. I'm like, yeah, but they're not really going to like it, or they're going to be sorry they hired me or someone else is going to be better. It's bad. 

Have you ever had imposter syndrome?

Mahan Tavakoli: Oh, Mary. I have it all the time. I have it all the time. 

And it's actually hearing that you also had it made me feel better. And I'm hoping as people hear the conversation, they understand that in many instances, many of us question our success and that's part of the mental process that we have to constantly overcome.

Mary Abbajay: Yeah. And you know, it's interesting, because I question, am I really successful? So that's the first piece, am I -  is this successful? This doesn't feel that successful. And did I deserve this success? You know, is someone going to find me. It is so multilayered.

If you ever find that magic pill to get rid of it, send it my way.

Mahan Tavakoli: I definitely will. I'll take some of it myself first, though. 

I'm curious, now that you're at this stage of your career, Mary, I'm sure your career has turned out very differently than how you would have thought of it when you started it. 

So if you were to give advice to a younger Mary Abbajay, what would that advice be?

Mary Abbajay: Oh my gosh. So I would say a couple of things, I would say. Just relax. It will all come together. Keep trying things out. You will find it. 

I remember when I - and this is something that I think the baby boomers do a lot, is they keep telling you to follow your passion, follow your passion, follow your passion.

Well, I don't know about you, but I didn't know what that was when I was 20 or 21 or 22 or 30. And so, I think that, I think we do young people disservice when we say, “Oh, when you follow your bliss, you will find it.” Instead, we should tell them, go find things that you like to do and then do them.

So that would be one thing I would say is, just relax, try a bunch of different things. When you find what's right for you, you will know it. And I did. And everything I've done before this, all messaged beautifully together, you know, like you said, being a bartender makes you a great consultant, all these things help. So that's one thing I would say. 

I would also say I really, really wanted to be a producer when I was young. I really wanted to get into television and film production. And I, I literally tried one interview and I thought, well, they're not going to take me, so I never tried it again. 

So the other thing I would say is, you know, don't give up on your first no, don't give up on your first no, there's always a way to find a door in. So I wish I had tried harder. 

And the third thing I would say to myself is make better use of networking early on in your life. I was an introvert, I was never part of any group. And so, and I didn't do a very good job of keeping in touch with people. And I think if I had done that, that would have made my life a lot easier. 

So get your network going early. Take care of your relationships. Don't take the first no is the end of it? And just keep trying on different things and you'll find something that works.

Mahan Tavakoli: That is such fabulous advice, Mary. 

Now you are still a very young woman at the peak of your career. Looking at many more peaks ahead of you. What is next for Mary Abbajay? 

Mary Abbajay:  Oh my goodness. Well, I don't know. And that started to bother me a little bit. So I think, you know, as we're in the middle of this pandemic almost 200 days in, I feel guilty. Cause I feel like I should.

I mean, I'm very busy though, but not quite as busy. So I'm thinking, why am I not reflecting on what I want to do next? Why am I not doing that? So now I'm feeling guilty about being tired and stressed about the pandemic. But I do need to figure that out. 

I think that I'm going to have to write another book, even though I don't want to. I really enjoyed the whole - I really enjoyed marketing the book, oddly enough. I enjoy, really enjoyed the speaking tours it provides. And I enjoyed that piece. So I'm kind of thinking my next book might be called something like Managing in, Managing up and Managing out, how to really take control of your career experience. That's what I'm toying with right now.

So now that I've said it out loud, my husband has all the astrology. He said, I have 1.9 days. Anything I start in this zone before mercury goes retrograde or whatever, is what I have to do, so I have to sell some. So it officially counts to start.

Mahan Tavakoli: Well, you said it here first. I loved that. I love that concept. And again, knowing you and your leadership, I think you can bring a lot of value to a lot of leaders through that book. 

Mary Abbajay: Thank you. 

Mahan Tavakoli: So Mary, talking about that, what books resources do you recommend in addition to, of course, Managing up, which I highly recommend as an outstanding book, and I will reread it with a different eye to look for people I might recognize in a book.

What other resources do you find yourself recommending to people as you want them to help improve their leadership? 

Mary Abbajay: I mean, besides this podcast?

Mahan Tavakoli: This is absolutely first under this, in addition to that.

Mary Abbajay: Well, you know, I'm a big fan of kind of the old, some of the old school stuff. So I really - you know, of course Adam Grant, loved that guy, you know. Brenee Brown, really loves Brenee Brown.

But you know, I still really liked to read kind of, higher level, I like things like Malcolm Gladwell. I like to read - I like things that really look at more of a broader sociological impact. 

I love listening to the podcasts, like, “How we made this.” I think that's great. 

I love the “Hidden Brain.” I think that's great. 

I like podcasts that really kind of go into who you are, how people operate together, understanding that. 

I love watching Ted talks. Of course I can remember any of them. I just watched one about how to tell a story and the guy goes, “You gotta remember, and. But therefore.” I love things like that.

One of my favorite books is the art of possibility by Zander. Those guys are the old conductor. But I've also been really returning a lot more to fiction lately. So that's what I've been doing during the pandemic cause I had been just guzzling beautiful pieces of literature, because I think for me it helps me connect to the human condition. And if you are a leader, you are leading human beings. And so I'm always drawn to things that talk about the human condition. 

Mahan Tavakoli: Great resources that you recommended. Thank you so much. So in closing, where would people be able to contact you?

Where do you want to send the listeners to find out more about Mary Abbajay, Managing up or any other upcoming books or resources? 

Mary Abbajay:  I am so easy to find. You can just Google me, Mary Abbajay, or you can go to my company website, careerstonegroup.com. Or the book website, managingupthebook.com. 

Find me on LinkedIn, Mary Abbyjay. Find me on Twitter @MaryAbbyjay. Find me on Facebook @MaryAbbyjay or every now and then I have been known to do an Instagram @MaryAbbyjay. I'm trying to make it easy people. 

Mahan Tavakoli: You have made it easy. You've made it wonderful. Thank you so much for the conversation Mary.

Mary Abbajay: Thank you so much Mahan. I'm a huge fan and I really I'm so honored, delighted that you'd have this little impostor like me on your show.

Mahan Tavakoli: Wonderful. Thank you.Mahan Tavakoli: Welcome to Partnering Leadership. This week, our guest is Mary Abbajay, author of the bestselling book Managing up. Now, in this episode, we don't spend much time talking about her wonderful book. Some point in the future, we will do that. But in this episode, we talk about Mary's own leadership journey.
Some of the challenges all along the way from her childhood. Onto the point when she decided to run a bar and nightclub in DC and eventually start her own consultancy. So listen in and learn from Mary Abbajay's leadership journey. And to share your comments and thoughts, join us at partneringleadership.com.