210 How to Reframe Your Thinking to Free Yourself from the Patterns and People that Hold You Back with Lia Garvin | Partnering Leadership Global Thought Leader

Mahan Tavakoli: Welcome to Partnering Leadership. I'm really excited this week to be welcoming Lia Garvin. Lia is the founder and CEO of The Workplace Reframe, which is an organizational consultancy. She's a speaker and coach and author of "Unstuck: Reframe your thinking to free yourself from the patterns and people that hold you back."

I really enjoy this conversation, I'm sure you will enjoy the conversation too. I also love hearing from you. Keep your comments coming, mahan@mahantavakoli.com.

There's a microphone icon on partnering leadership.com. You can leave voice messages for me there. Don't forget to follow the podcast on your favorite platform. Tuesday, Conversations with magnificent Change Makers from the Greater Washington, DC, DMV region, and Thursday conversations with brilliant global thought Leaders.

Now, here is my conversation with Lia Garvin.

Lia Garvin, Welcome to Partnering Leadership. I'm thrilled to have you in this conversation with me.

[00:00:59] Lia Garvin: Thank you so much. So excited to be here.

[00:01:02] Mahan Tavakoli: Can't wait to talk about "Unstuck: Reframe your thinking to free yourself from the patterns and people that hold you back." Before we get to that, Lia would love to know whereabouts you grew up and how your upbringing impacted the kind of person you've become.

[00:01:17] Lia Garvin: I grew up in the Bay Area first in San Francisco, one of the few San Francisco natives I think still living in the Bay Area. Then was in the North Bay for high school. Both parents really focused on making sure that we had everything that we need, we had the support, just really, I would say very lucky to have a lot of support from my family as I grew up.

And it's interesting as I reflected later working in tech, I think being in the Bay Area sparked even though it was, gotta say before all the tech stuff was going on, definitely pre all the big, boom that came in later 2000's. But I think being exposed to a lot of that early on sparked an interest in working in tech.

But it's funny that I experienced a lot more of the imposter syndrome and kind of these feelings a lot later I think because I had such supportive parents around my work and what I was doing and go try anything you want and go after it, and it hit me when I had entered the workforce, wait a second, that's not how it goes. This isn't the situation. So it's really privilege to say that. And I think it also gave me a real passion around changing that for people that everybody should feel they can do it and they can be successful working in any environment.

And I think it ended up shaping my passion around helping build inclusive and effective teams and making sure that women aren't really set up for success in the workforce. And really people from any background are set up for success and have equitable opportunities. I think definitely appreciate my family for infusing that into me and creating just enough " Wait a second, this is not okay, not the way it should be" once I was really in that experience,

[00:03:00] Mahan Tavakoli: So then when was it, Lia, that you realized that what I'm feeling is imposter syndrome.

[00:03:06] Lia Garvin: It's funny, I think I say in my book, I didn't have imposter syndrome before I started working in tech, but I had it later that afternoon, my first day. So my first day working in a large tech company I was at orientation. I sat down at a table and a man sat down at the table, it was big round tables, and he said, Let me guess, are you an administrative assistant or are you in marketing? Literally said that to me. Oh, hello, Nice to meet you too. I was , What the heck is this? It hit me, Wait a second. Okay this is gonna be a question that comes up a lot. And as a non-engineer it planted the seed, unfortunately, from the very first day. There was a lot of biases and assumptions around what I was here to do and what, I should be doing, and the roles that women are in tech, most of which are very incorrect assumptions and biases.

So I worked in program management and I was a business analyst at the time. And it was a punch in the gut that it took a really long time to think about how do I demonstrate my value and what am I bringing here as a non-engineer into a tech organization? When I started in tech almost 10 years ago, there were less and less roles that were not engineering, and now there's tons of different kinds of roles. Real estate, you could work in health you could be a chef, all sorts of things. But at the time it was you're an engineer or you're some other kind of less role and that was tough.

[00:04:29] Mahan Tavakoli: The interesting thing is, Lia, that punch in the gut comes more so in many instances for women in certain roles than it does for others. The question is, what we do with that punch in the gut. That's why I love your book "Unstuck" in that there is an ability that we have to reframe that thinking. So what do people need to do when their environment ends up keeping them stuck and pushing them down?

[00:05:03] Lia Garvin: I love this question because this is something I talk a lot about, that there are a ton of factors out there that make it so much harder and that getting unstuck and reframing which is the strategy I talk about, it's not about ignoring those things or look on the bright side, chin up, no, it's about recognizing these are very real obstacles that are even more difficult with intersectional dimensions.

Race, disability, there's so many things that can make it so much harder. And I think, I only experienced one dimension of that from the gender aspect. I think as I learned more and supported more folks and just did more work around to help people understand that it just gets more and more layered and more and more difficult. And what I to talk about is recognizing this is the context, and so it's about recognizing, Hey, these things are going to be harder, these things are going to exist, these are gonna be frustrations, these are gonna be beliefs other people have that we have to push against.

And as we're pushing to change the system, we also wanna recognize when we are attaching to those beliefs and then believing them. Women aren't technical or something like that right? Some really false stereotype bias. It's not enough just to say, Oh, I'm technical. I don't believe that if my colleagues believe that right there is still going to have to be a feeling of having to prove myself, but it means I don't say I'm gonna believe that and then not pursue this interest that I have or not really build the skills to advocate for myself or talk my work or all the other themes that I talk about my book.

So I think one of the big limiting beliefs that a lot of women that I've worked with myself, is don't talk about your work, don't show off, just, keep your head down good work gets noticed, and that belief just serves to keep our work further invisible and not noticed. but that's something that a lot of us have been told. And when we did talk about our work, we got slapped on the wrist , Hey who are you to stand out?

So you're struggling with this thing where you kind of believe it and the world is telling you to. So what do you do? You have to try different perspectives and try different approaches. And that is how, I work with folks on navigating these things, is recognizing all these things are true. It's really difficult to be a woman in the workplace, a woman of multiple identities in the workplace, and here's how we're gonna move forward.

[00:07:23] Mahan Tavakoli: There are systemic issues that need to be addressed. That said, there are things that we can do and reframing can help us free ourselves from those patterns. Lia, your book took longer to read because I found myself half the time cracking up for a few minutes, including on the cover of the book where you say , "I'm Stuck, reframe your thinking to free yourself from patterns and people that hold you back." And on the bottom," spoiler alert some of these people are you. So all throughout the book you have these little side blurbs and conversations where sometimes I would find myself cracking up and putting the book down laughing because it's so true, that sort of as if you've got the back of your mind that thinking that's going on there, speaking at the same time as the mouth is speaking.

[00:08:19] Lia Garvin: Exactly. And I love that you love that. I think that's what made the book so fun to write was it was essentially my inner monologue, which can be serious and silly at the same time. And so I was , you know what, I'm just gonna put it all in there. And you say, there's so many things that are either absurd or ridiculous or frustrating that we do have this inner dialogue that we kinda sometimes have to keep a little bit quiet, but it's still there so I wanted to make sure it was represented.

[00:08:42] Mahan Tavakoli: It was, and I really enjoyed it because it's a business book with a lot of value, at the same time I had a smile on my face the entire time. And a few times really cracked up and had to put the book to aside as I was laughing. And you talk about reframing and 12 important reframes that we can go through to get unstuck.

You mentioned reframing your value, which I find also in my coaching work with senior executives, including CEOs that are women, a lot of times women have a harder time with it. They desire for being humble, which I think is important, and that humility keeps them from advocating for themselves and marketing themselves and talking about the value they're bringing.

So how can we reframe value in a way that is not inappropriate? It's not too much? No one likes someone who is consistently bragging. What is the right way to reframe value?

[00:09:44] Lia Garvin: To start with, what is reframing? Reframing is really the act of looking at a challenge or somewhere where you're stuck through to perspective saying, Okay, how else can I look at this?

And you said, there's a perspective, I think a lot of times that we can adopt, which is I shouldn't talk about myself, I shouldn't brag you said, or it'll just get noticed. And another perspective on that is, okay, what would it look to talk about it? Which is what you're asking. And so I think a few of the strategies that I think are really helpful and I talk about this in the chapter, about talking about your impact as well, is really connecting the dots between what you do, why it matters, and what value now it had for the organization.

I think a lot of times, we talk about one of those pieces and we're telling an incomplete story about what value that we are able to deliver. For example, I led this team through this big organizational change that sort of is what your job description was, that's not enough to demonstrate the value. So I suggest folks tie a superpower, a real strength that you have. Leveraging my deep passion for building relationships and being able to connect with people and help people, bring vulnerability to the conversation.

I was able to establish a process to drive large scale organizational change that resulted in saving our company x, y, z dollars and time. So now you're able to connect a series of things together. And if you start with leveraging this superpower you didn't say, I'm really great at this thing, or I made all this money. It's less about, I did this, it's more about the thing that you brought.

The more we talk about the work first and what we were able to deliver, the less it feels " am I bragging? Am I showing off? Is this too much? It's here's this value that I created and this is the way I did it."

So that's one way. The other thing I talk about in the book is really being mindful of not falling into what I call the fixer trap. And being a fixer is something where you roll up your sleeves and you can solve any problem and you can make sure everything gets done or figured out. For many women that's actually really celebrated throughout our upbringing and even in our early career, and then all of a sudden it's not celebrated and it's why are you doing all this either administrative or tactical work. And all of a sudden the script is flipped.

So I think when we look at how we define our value and we feel , Oh God, I'm in this fixer role, how am I gonna break free of this? It's to help, teach people how to fish. Okay, here's a system that I created. Here you go. You can utilize this for next time to, plan this sort of team event or, figure out this kind of problem in the future.

So that's how we can get out from under being a fixer. And also how to add value is to help elevate others, teach them how to problem solve help them step up and be accountable. And then we're really creating a lot of long term value there as well.

[00:12:30] Mahan Tavakoli: So what I hear from you is, number one, the way you communicate the value that you bring makes a big difference. That's in reframing the value. It's a little bit the way I think about when people share, compliments or strengths with others, without evidence, it can become insincere. It can sound flattery.

That doesn't mean you should avoid it, it means there has to be evidence to support it, so it can and should be done well. The other point I hear from you is the need for us to help develop rather than solve problems that helps in reframing that value that the leaders bring.

[00:13:11] Lia Garvin: Exactly. And I think the, how do we elevate others? One way is to treat them owners and give them the tools to step up. So segue into the chapter about accountability, this is something that I talk a lot about and in my work as an organizational consultant, do a ton of work with teams on is how do we reframe our relationship with accountability from thinking it's about blame and punishment and hierarchy and micromanagement.

No, it's actually not any of those things. Accountability is about ownership and empowering people to step up. So we can add a lot of value by creating the structures for people to be accountable. And then when they step up as owners, everybody wins and people feel, they can really rise to the occasion and take on, whatever they're faced with.

[00:13:56] Mahan Tavakoli: Now with that accountability also Lia, I find perceptions play a role. So I would love to tie it into feedback. Feedback is absolutely important. You talk about reframing feedback correctly. So how can we solicit feedback?

[00:14:12] Lia Garvin: Oh I think feedback is the hardest thing. I start the book with that because first and foremost, it's the foundation. If we can't deal with feedback, we can't overcome any of these other challenges because we aren't able to take in the information that's in front of us.

 So I think a few things, I mean, feedback is often looked at as, okay, this is a criticism or something people don't like about me or something I'm doing wrong. And that perspective is something that's going to make us dread feedback and be terrified of it. If someone says, Hey, can I give you some feedback? You're like, I'd rather just never come back to work.

So that belief is already getting in our way. So remembering that feedback's actually information, more so at the other person even than about us. And take for example, one colleague or manager might love the way that you present information that's very detailed and very meticulous.

Another person might say, just get to the point. I'm not even sure why is there all this set up? And so I think a lot of times we can get feedback that differs very widely across each person or stakeholder or a colleague. And if we attach to believing Oh gosh, everything someone tells me I have to change about myself, we're just gonna get thrashed around by everybody.

 So instead saying, Okay, all feedback that's shared is information, it's a data point. I'm gonna collect all of that and examine what should I adopt or try out that will get me closer to where I wanna get in my career or will help me influence more or deliver this work in a different way or help something land better. So that's the first thing.

But I think with recognizing that there is so much bias and feedback, because I think a lot of times people believe wrongly, that if they think of something, they should say it to other people, which in general, I think should be reigned in quite a bit.

There's beliefs about how certain people should be or are, and this is coming up a lot I've seen with Gen Z, new ways of talking about well, what's professional, what's casual and so this is only gonna become more and more part of the conversation.

And I think, for feedback givers putting ourselves in check and asking, is this about the work or the personality? Is this about the behavior or is this about a preference that I have and does it really get in the way of a job getting done or the work getting delivered? And this takes a lot of nuance between the What and the How, but we can in organizations where they're focusing on we want people's , how to be collaborative and inclusive, there can also, the flip side can be an over focus on that's not how I would do it and therefore it's wrong. So it's something we really nuanced about.

Now if you're a receiver of feedback that's a really horrible situation to be in, and that can really shake your confidence and it's the moment to remember again, this is more about that other person and their beliefs that need to be changed and evolved but it's not about you. It does not mean you cannot do something or should not do something. And I think if you have an opportunity to share feedback back to the person, I think that's a really important thing to do and say, Hey, That feedback really is coming across as a personality judgment.

And let's talk about the work, how did that get in the way from the work? Sometimes we're not comfortable having that conversation directly. So if you have a relationship with that person's manager or feel comfortable escalating that or the more that you can educate that other person, I know that it's not fair or okay that we have to educate someone else when something has happened to us.

But I think there is an opportunity to help, ensure that person doesn't repeat that behavior. To the extent that you feel comfortable, I think the more in organizations that we teach people about what bias feedback sounds , how it shows up, how to really leave anything around personality or preferences outta the conversation, the more we can help tackle this.

[00:17:56] Mahan Tavakoli: You mentioned nuance a few times Lia, that nuance is really important in soliciting and giving of the feedback. And one of the things I find is really important is that, people's perceptions of the world is their reality, and without getting this feedback, we are not able to get ourselves unstuck.

So if we are able to get more feedback from more people, then those patterns can help us get ourselves unstuck. Any one of those individual data points can be biased but getting a lot of it and consistently can help us get unstuck, which is part of your point.

[00:18:35] Lia Garvin: Exactly and that's what I suggest with both, feeling a really loud inner critic around feedback or even imposter syndrome is collect more data. As you just said, Hey, there's a lot of perceptions that are out there evidence typically shows us that we are doing a lot better of a job than our inner critic is giving us credit for.

And if we only attach to one example that's more critical and we throw away all the positive, it becomes really hard to recognize and appreciate the great work we're doing. And I think, you say it's really important to collect a lot of data. And to ask from multiple perspectives and when asking for feedback, one huge life hack is to offer a specific thing you're working on.

Plant a seed not to just ask, Hey, do you have any generalized feedback about me as a person? I just would strongly suggest never to do that. But to say, Hey, I'm working on my public speaking skills and I'm really trying to get tighter on the way I'm landing a message, or I'm working on making sure my meetings run smoothly, can you keep an eye out for this?

That is really a place where we can get really useful feedback that's around what we want feedback on instead of opening the floodgates, which, it's just not gonna be good.

[00:19:50] Mahan Tavakoli: I love that point Lia, ask for a feedback from a person that you see as being credible in that area, and you have a trusting relationship with. So to your point, if it is your speaking skills, you have a trusting relationship with someone, you believe they are a good speaker, so you ask their feedback on your speaking skills, then that by itself makes it a little easier to then be able to incorporate that feedback. Ask for the specific from a trusted resource that has some credibility in that specific area.

[00:20:23] Lia Garvin: Exactly. And I've received feedback that, I'm too emotional, I think every woman has received that piece of feedback and that's biased feedback. Completely doesn't acknowledge that every gender has emotions it's like there's so many things wrong with that. And the kinds of feedback that when we hear that kind of thing, it can relate shake us, we say how many other people thought that, did it get in the way of this and that and the other? And before we go into a rabbit hole of feeling , Oh my God, even though this thing was biased, did it really harm, me and my perception in some way to collect more feedback.

And I'll tell you what I have reframed from emotional to passionate has really served me and become a superpower in my career. That's another reason to collect feedback. Similarly, I was not an engineer. I used to think building technical skills was a development area that I actually needed to go back to school.

No, it was something that had no relevance to the direction I wanted to go. So that's an example of feedback that actually you can say, Okay, that's not on the path of a place that I'm going. I don't need to develop in this area. Thank you. But no, thank you . And move on.

[00:21:29] Mahan Tavakoli: You start with it and I think it's extremely powerful and important. Without that feedback, we can't get ourselves unstuck. You also talk about reframing conflict and the fact that we need to change the stories that we tell. How can we change the stories in order to be able to reframe conflict to help us get unstuck?

[00:21:54] Lia Garvin: First we have to recognize that the thoughts that we're having are stories. And this can be the hardest thing of all, is that we think something and we believe it's true because we feel it. That's the first thing is to say, Hey I'm upset, I'm frustrated, I'm sad, I'm disappointed. That's the feeling. Now, whatever happens after that is a story that I've added to that. Brene Brown talks about this in one of her books. She says the story I'm making up others call it the story I'm telling myself. I think it's taught in Stanford graduate school business. It's very widely talked about as a tool to really catch that story before it becomes a runaway train, before it becomes true. I think crucial conversations may talk about it as well. And to catch the story, we have to be tuned in to what is the dialogue that we're having with ourselves?

This is also a tool I share what kinds of things are we saying to ourselves? And when I'm feeling down, what is my inner dialogue? Am I talking in absolutes? This always happens, this never happens. Am I getting in a why me space? When we tune into that, we understand well, what's actually going on.

And so when we recognize, okay, I'm feeling frustrated. There's likely to be a story here, just being honest with ourselves first and foremost. What is the analysis or the conclusion I've jumped to based on the situation.

I got passed up for this promotion, so I'm disappointed. That's the situation. I'm feeling very disappointed, I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling frustrated, I don't wanna work here anymore, whatever I'm feeling and then the story I'm telling myself is this.

 There could be an infinite number of stories you could tell yourself. On the optimistic side, a story could be, Ooh, great. I learned about the process and what I need to do for next time, and a couple really exciting development areas, and I'm gearing up to go.

That's not always the case. But on the farther side, Is I'll never be successful in this organization. No one sees my value. I'm not good enough. Everybody was right who told me I wasn't good enough. I should just quit. There's an infinite number of stories we can tell ourselves and attach through there. I would suggest when we're in that zone to explore and try on a series of stories and say, Okay, based on this story, how do I wanna move forward? So I didn't even bring up conflict.

When we're in a conflict with someone let's say, a colleague and I have a disagreement over how to approach something. That's the situation. I'm feeling frustrated. And the story I'm telling myself is they don't respect me. They don't listen to me, they don't value me. This is where we wanna acknowledge how that story is driving how we're responding to that person.

And if we are acting from the place of that story, it's gonna be a lot different than we said, ooh, this is a disagreement. I love rolling up my sleeves and getting in there and disagreeing. This is so fun, your whole approach is gonna be different.

[00:24:39] Mahan Tavakoli: So Lia one of the steps is recognition of the story that we are telling ourselves. When you find yourself in situations where the story that you're telling yourself is not a positive one, how do you reframe the story? It's really hard when I think about it. A lot of times our minds gravitate toward the most negative versions of stories when there is a conflict most especially if the relationship is not a positive relationship. How can we reframe the story in order to be able to reframe the conflict.

[00:25:19] Lia Garvin: So I like to say it's one question, what outcome do I want? And we ask ourselves that question. The answer is more often, I just want to be able to work here, and have a peaceful interaction. I just wanna get this thing done. I just wanna be able to move forward. I just wanna get through this.

It's rarely to prove this person right, to get this person fired. It's usually just moving through it. It's I would say, more often than not. And when we recognize that even when we feel really frustrated or wronged we see that can dictate how we wanna move forward as opposed to having to prove ourselves right.

And in the book, I share an example of two colleagues that were friends and then one became the manager of the other and had to give feedback about the work. I'll just say I've seen that go poorly most times . So it's really hard to manage a former friend that when the manager.

What outcome do I want? It was actually to have a positive relationship with this new team member. It wasn't to prove it to her that she was disrespecting her and I think in the flip side, the direct report would've said the same. I just want this to go back to how it was.

 So when we run into a conflict and we ask ourselves, what outcome do I want? Let that provided it's hopefully in the direction of resolution and moving forward, be the lens at which we approach our next step from, as opposed to driving outta that story.

[00:26:44] Mahan Tavakoli: I love that perspective of having that outcome in focus because a lot of times when emotions take over, we end up going in directions that the outcome is not aligned with. So keeping that outcome has a big impact on this. Now, another one of the reframes I would love to touch on is reframing of comparison. Isn't comparison a basis for progress? Why and how then should we reframe comparison so it's healthy, not unhealthy.

[00:27:18] Lia Garvin: I think comparison can be something that helps us feel a little bit of fuel to move forward and it can be a helpful driver in sports and different things for sure. I think where it becomes a bit of a slippery slope and can cause more harm is when we're comparing ourselves first, to just anything and everything, which I think has become really the case with a lot of things with social media that we're getting windows into too much information about other people, right? Every move someone's making, everything they eat, where they're vacationing, where they bought, where we create this false I'm not good enough. Just even if it's stuff we never would've thought about just because we're exposed to it. So I think there's an information overload that's creating new feelings of comparison in areas we never would've cared or thought about. So we're now in this heightened sensitive comparison and with so much insight into other people's lives and work. There's a lot of desire to keep up with the Jones's and have what other people have.

Seeing your colleagues and wanting to be in that achievement zone is one thing. Seeing someone got a car may drive you to do a different set of behaviors that end up not fulfilling. What was I even chasing? Was this even something I wanted? When we feel ourselves feeling this sense of fomo, or fear of missing out or this sense to wanna keep up with the Joneses or comparing, I suggest people ask themselves two questions. The first is, Do I really want this?

I saw the car, I saw this Paris trip, someone went on, I saw this new house one bought. Do I even want this thing? And to really be honest with ourselves , in my book, I talk about a story , do I wanna go camping every weekend? No, I don't wanna go camping. I have to admit it, it's not me. But, okay, so I've answered that. Now the second question is, what is it I actually want? And this is where we get what the real learning is. Okay. I didn't want the new car. I wanted to be able to spend the money I've earned on something that I feel really proud of.

I wanna be able to celebrate myself or, I didn't wanna go camping. I wanna be a little bit more adventurous. I don't wanna just be working all the time and never getting out there, or I saw someone buy a new house. That's not what I wanted, I want really is plant my roots somewhere we figure out what we actually want.

Now we have a goal that's meaningful and there's an intrinsic piece that we can attach to. That's the most important thing, to both overcome comparison, but also to set a goal that we actually will pursue and have resilience against when something goes wrong is that there's a real motivator there.

A lot of times when we compare ourselves and we ask ourselves that first question, do I really want this? We might say, Yes, I do want this, but at least we've asked ourselves and we say, Okay, now I can figure out, okay, how do I wanna get that? What is it gonna look ? We can make a plan around it as opposed to just being on autopilot. I wanna hit every single thing I see , give me more of it because that can create a sense of a not-enoughness.

[00:30:08] Mahan Tavakoli: It's a meaningful way to get unstuck. If anything, the unhealthy comparison gets us more stuck. I had a conversation with Patrick McGinness, who came up with the term fomo, and he talks about the fact that one of the most pictured sites in Russia, it's actually a toxic waste dump but it looks beautiful in pictures, so people take selfies and it looks glamorous. It looks gorgeous. So you look at the picture and say, Oh my God, I wish I was there. So there is so much of that happening where we are comparing our mundane lives with the curated highlights of people smiling in front of the most beautiful sites.

That is the unhealthy comparison that gets us more stuck. There can be healthy comparison if we do it with intention of where we want to end up.

[00:31:08] Lia Garvin: Exactly. Let's be honest. Anybody listening with kids, any picture with the toddler smiling? There's 200 before that where they're crying and throw a tantrum. It hit me. Before I had kids, I had a colleague and I was, I saw my Instagram that the wedding you went to looked awesome. I saw you in your family. He's my God, that was the worst day of my life. My two kids were screaming, my wife was yelling at me. We Didn't talk the whole car ride home. And you saw this one photo and you're , Oh, my life's so great. , you just, you have no idea what happens behind the scenes.

[00:31:38] Mahan Tavakoli: Lia, I'm cracking up because we just had a wonderful family vacation at Cancun. One of the most beautiful pictures has a beautiful background, blue swimming pool. It's gorgeous. But it was right after my girls. I have a 12 year old and 15 year old. They were added, They were really fighting with each other.

And my wife and I were , Okay, just one picture. Take a picture, smile. So they have this beautiful smile where this picture, so anyone that looks at that picture is , Oh my God, this is the most serene of all.

[00:32:10] Lia Garvin: Exactly so we have to just take it with a grain of salt, because everything has a filter on it, a lens on it. And if we know what we really want with the motivator is that's the thing to focus on.

[00:32:21] Mahan Tavakoli: As I mentioned, your book has a lot of great thoughts around the reframes on how to get unstuck and a lot of fun side tidbits, including I cracked up so hard when someone tells me to look on the bright side, I want to punch them in the face. Sometimes we don't wanna be told to look on the bright side.

But we do need to be able to get ourselves unstuck. So when do we know we are stuck where we need to use these reframes to get unstuck.

[00:32:59] Lia Garvin: I would say the simplest way is when we feel we've been trying everything we know how, or we've been doing everything and we just can't break through, whether that's getting to the role we wanna get or going after a goal, or we keep getting rejected for something, career wise, I'm not gonna say with, dating or anything, but we keep not making it somewhere that we want to with our work and I think when we're feeling , ah, I've tried everything and I just can't get there. That's where I think we know we're stuck.

I also mentioned when we're having this dialogue, that's very absolute. I never, I always, why me? It's never gonna happen. This really negative self-talk. It's pretty hard to be unstuck when we're having that sort of dialogue.

 So when we notice that and I would suggest for anyone, if you're like, am I stuck? How do I know? Actually look across the next few days, check in with yourself every few hours. Okay. What's my mood? How am I feeling? What's my inner dialogue? And actually to tune into if you're feeling positive or more down, what interactions have you just had?

What thoughts have you had? What kind of activities are you doing to actually build a map of self-awareness around what's going on for you internally. Then when you say, Yeah, when I do my job, any aspects of it, I feel terrible, I feel stuck. It's saying, Okay, there's some real things I wanna explore.

Is there a bigger thing, I want to change my job. Is it that I wanna feel more engaged in what I'm working on, that I need help with something that I need to have a conversation with my manager? There's a lot there once we figure out that we are stuck, then we can start figuring out how we wanna take action.

[00:34:33] Mahan Tavakoli: Even your title becomes a great basis for people to think about it in that what are the patterns that are potentially contributing to you being stuck and reframing those patterns and who might be some of the people that are contributing to you being stuck. And as you say, you could be, the stories that you're telling your view could be one of those people that is keeping you unstuck. So that's a great way to think about it.

Now, Lia, in addition to your book Unstuck, are there any leadership resources or practices you recommend for people as they want to think about how they can reframe their thinking and break through?

[00:35:18] Lia Garvin: The book is full of tons of other books tools and things that I've found valuable because, I think all of that has shaped what are the things that have worked for people? So I think the book Playing Big by Tara Moore is a fantastic book that helps us, what is the bigger vision I have for myself on what does it mean to play big as opposed to holding myself back and playing small, that's fantastic. I mentioned Brene Brown. I love Gifts of Imperfection, is a great example. Talks a lot about accountability, which is my favorite subject. The Culture Code is a fantastic book about a lot of the team culture work that I do. Huge resource for that, as is any book from Patrick Lencioni the Advantage, specifically is a fantastic book for teams. What I try to do when I read any book is to think about, how do I wanna put this into action? And let me think about where would this work? What sort of, roadblocks would this come up to and how might I fine tune it to practice this in a situation I'm in?

So any time we're reading it's about thinking, okay, this is one of many tools that I can deploy to really shape how I approach things as a leader. One super quick tool for feedback, I love the situation behavior impact model.

I think it's created by the center of creative leadership which is to talk about the situation in which something occurred that the behavior that's in question and then an impact it had. Now, when I gave the feedback example, I was using this framework because this allows us to be specific and to keep it about the work, not the person.

So this helps us move away from some of that bias, or really quickly see where we can have the conversation. The behavior we're talking about really didn't impact the work. So let's talk about this, this is sounding more biased feedback, so using a feedback framework and really encouraging your teams to utilize a feedback framework is a helpful way to pull some of the bias out of that as well.

[00:37:10] Mahan Tavakoli: That's an outstanding way to approach feedback and as you said, keep it work focused, behavior focused as opposed to what a lot of people do, which is unfortunately gets to the individual or the personality. And that adds a whole host of other issues to it. Another thing you mentioned I appreciate some of the recommendations you had, without understanding where we are headed, and I know one of the reframes that you talk about is with respect to goals. It's hard to know when we are stuck and we want to get unstuck. So some reflection on that direction and reframing some of those goals can help us know whether we are stuck and how we should get unstuck in the direction we want ahead.

[00:37:59] Lia Garvin: Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:01] Mahan Tavakoli: So Lia, how can the audience find out more about your book and connect with you?

[00:38:06] Lia Garvin: Visit my website, liagarvin.com to learn more about my book, my coaching, my organizational consulting or I'm launching a course called the Unstuck Career Accelerators. So you can learn more about that on my website as well and find me on LinkedIn or Instagram @lia.garvin or on YouTube, I have a channel reframe with Lia, where I talk about little snippets from the book different reframes, workplace challenges that offers a lot of tips and tricks as well.

[00:38:36] Mahan Tavakoli: I appreciate their resources Lia, and your book unstuck. Reframe your thinking to free yourself from the patterns and people that hold you back. Really appreciate your insight and sharing it with a partnering leadership community. Thank you so much, Lia Garvin.

[00:38:50] Lia Garvin: Thank you so much for having me.