242 Leading with Character & How Leaders Can Maintain Balance and Avoid Burnout with Caren Kenney |Partnering Leadership Global Thought Leader

[00:00:00] Mahan Tavakoli: Karen Kenny, welcome to Partnering Leadership. I am thrilled to have you in this conversation with me.

[00:00:05] Caren Kenney: great to be here. Mahan. I've enjoyed listening to your podcast and learned a lot and I'm excited and honored to be here.

[00:00:12] Mahan Tavakoli: I've learned a lot from you, Karen, whether it's leading with character that you had co-written with Jim Lair and also some of your own additional thoughts that you have shared with respect to whether it is a growth mindset, flexibility, emotional wellbeing, burnout. So can't wait until we have conversations around those.

But before we get to that, we'd love to know whereabouts you grew up, Karen, and how your upbringing impacted who you've become.

[00:00:41] Caren Kenney: That's a good question. Actually grew up outside of Cleveland, Ohio. My dad worked for nasa. He was part of the early space administration and the young man's space Very it's interesting because I didn't realize how important his job was till I was an adult because he was a very humble man, but he was very instrumental in space exploration. But also grew up going to schools my entire life, which was very important to my parents. So I guess what kind of marks my upbringing was a very heavy focus on community giving and values. As a junior in high school, my dad retired and moved to Maine to the East Coast.

So I felt like it was a totally different country. it was a challenging experience. They didn't talk the same. My junior year in high school was a tough time to move, but. It was great for me in the long run, in retrospect, in terms of learning to a change, meet new friends. And then I've been on the east coast ever since.

[00:01:43] Mahan Tavakoli: That is a tough age to move right in the middle of high school. I wonder how did that impact you, Karen

[00:01:52] Caren Kenney: I have to say, honestly, at the time I hated my parents. How could they destroy my world and take me away from my friends? Your world is very small your friends are everything, and that's when you're more disconnected from your parents. I would say very shy and introverted.

What it did for me was force me out of my comfort zone. In a very painful way. I remember going to the first day of school and everyone knew each other and I was standing alone in the line. It seemed like ours and I'm sure it wasn't. But it was my first experience of really feeling afraid and alone and happened a number of times throughout my life, but that taught me I could get through it, so as much as I hated it, I'm glad and I'm glad for everything that's happened in my life. Especially the challenging ones have actually been times when I've been able to grow. I think,

[00:02:41] Mahan Tavakoli: You also have had other personal challenges along the way. How have. You become a better, more capable leader as a result of some of the personal challenges you've had to overcome. Karen?

[00:02:58] Caren Kenney: That's a good question. I think growing up we did have this kind of perfect small community where we knew everyone and seemingly a perfect family. Just things were easy. And then, when I got older, the challenges got bigger than moving married my college sweetheart. Over time he developed a kind of a debilitating mental illness, I guess we just didn't recognize in school, but ultimately lost him to a mental illness, was a single parent. It was a challenge. And I started to really experience the world in a very different way and difficult way, but it also caused me to be more empathetic about people not judging people. And , I'd say again, these kind of scary experiences caused growth. So as a leader, I think I became more accepting, understanding, and empathetic you would see certain behaviors and not recognize that there might be something going on.

My husband was an executive, he was running for local office. He had actually checked himself into a mental health facility, but got butchered in the media for not participating in a debate. So we all covered for him. So it made me as a leader not to jump to conclusions when someone's not performing well, when they're not engaged, to think there might be something else going on that I don't know about.

Might be better for me to be more curious and ideally helpful than to pass judgment. And I think we all can do that at times.

[00:04:24] Mahan Tavakoli: It is so important and so beautifully set, Karen, the humanity that you have in part based on the experiences that you went. Through helps you relate better with other people. And we all have similar experiences that we have to tap into to help us try to understand other people and their experiences a little bit better.

So you have done that really well. You ended up with Jay and J'S Human Performance Institute. How did that come about?

[00:04:59] Caren Kenney: Yeah, my career has not been a typical trajectory. One of the I co-founded was focused on developing digital health coaching programs for people with mental health issues. We did this part of my drive to join the person who came up with this idea, a psychologist, was husband.

During the time, many years ago, there was not help for people with mental health, not much. You'd go to the doctor once a month for five minutes and get a prescription, and there was a lot of stigma associated. And he had this idea for how do we reach people in between sessions or people who don't forward for care, which half of our members didn't.

So we developed this company that was tied to my purpose and passion, was to raise awareness about mental illness help people. There was another company that acquired us that we merged with that also offered a different type of digital health coaching, more lifestyle and chronic conditions.

J and j was our customer, and so they acquired our programs. And so I ended up with j and j on the leadership team to launch the health and wellness business for j and j. I think they were one of the very early companies to understand that wellbeing and performance are linked.

They wanted to have healthiest employees. They acquired our company and then literally eight weeks later, they acquired the Human Performance Institute which for years had been focused on helping elite athletes, military special forces surgeons, ultimately CEOs, leaders, anyone who had to perform. Under very stressful conditions and basically not have a bad day. I not only benefited from being part of the leadership team of this group, but I got to learn every day. I was training all the time through the institute, and then ultimately went directly into the institute leading a program focused on C-suite leaders, because we found that we were training everybody at different levels within the organization to get to the upper levels, but then stopped, leaders we recognize needed more help than ever. It's lonely at the top, there's no playbook. so that was part of it. And then also just taking this holistic approach that we can't just focus on, you don't train to be a c E O. You train as a human holistically to take on all the massive challenges.

And you know that all too well. I think in your work with leaders and in your own roles. 

[00:07:14] Mahan Tavakoli: That's what I was wondering, Karen, because as I was mentioning to you before we started recording, and it sounds like you did some of that at j and I know you've been writing about it as well. I'm interacting with quite a lot of CEOs and maybe their health and wellness physically is being taken care of.

However, I'm sensing a higher level of burnout, mental and emotional exhaustion than ever. Before. I wonder if in your work you are sensing that and would love to get some of your thoughts and perspectives, how leaders of teams and organizations who many times feel like they are the ones to be relied on, how they can address some of their own mental emotional wellbeing.

[00:08:09] Caren Kenney: Yeah, a really good question. We are definitely seeing the same thing. And I don't know if you saw a summer Deloitte study where 70% of the C-suite are considering leaving their roles because they're questioning whether it's worth the cost to their mental wellbeing. 

So this is a serious issue, we need good leaders. And sometimes some of the best people recognize that it's just too much or they're too much in the process. So we're seeing it. On record numbers right now. Part of it is they were struggling certainly before the pandemic, but I think the pandemic got people to stop and think, is this worth it? Seeing maybe some of the things that they were missing and just creating a challenge for them. husband's a c e O. There was no playbook on what to do for the pandemic and no matter what choice that you made in terms of keeping something open or closing it there was no right answer.

So the in general on leaders, you're not just leading a company from a management standpoint. You have to make a call on social issues. You have to take a stance, political issues, environmental issues, you name it. They have to be experts in everything. And no matter what. 50%, more or less will disagree with them. So they are always under scrutiny. The media is there your shareholders stockholders, your employees can tweet about you there's no hiding. I remember back in j and j when I first started there, there were dark days when you didn't speak to the meteor.

You could just shut down and down and do what you needed to do. You can't, cause somebody else will tell your story now, and it won't be a good one, typically. So it's extreme pressure on them. No playbook. You have to continuously reinvent yourself and your company and there's just nothing there to prepare you.

So if I've said it, sometimes people say, oh, they get paid a lot of money. Actually the smart ones know that all that money is not gonna help you if your career, lose more importantly, your family or your mental wellbeing. And you said they know that they have these physical resources, but oftentimes they will sacrifice that they're their sleep. They're burning out because they're trying to get through the day. That's not good for us. It's not good for our economy. It's not good for our leaders, our families, our communities.

[00:10:29] Mahan Tavakoli: There might be some that get well compensated that doesn't by itself make up for anything. And there are quite a few that the compensation is not the driving factor.

[00:10:40] Caren Kenney: Right.

[00:10:41] Mahan Tavakoli: Just this morning, Karen, I was with the c e o and she was talking about some of the burden of having gone through the past couple of years, pandemic how they had guided the organization.

But again, the strain that was on her from the external stakeholders, from the board, and then from the employees. When you work with and guide CEOs on how they should strike that balance, what do you tell them to do? Where should she start? When she says, I've led this organization through a couple of great years through the pandemic, but I'm just exhausted.

I am burned out. Everyone's demanding more from me at this time, and I have no more to.

[00:11:34] Caren Kenney: Yeah it's a sad situation and it's. solve. But usually where we have them start is purpose. And I'm not talking about company purpose. Everybody's talking about company purpose. And that's part of the problem is people are so focused on the company purpose that they're neglecting personal purpose.

Really starting at your personal purpose. That's what enables you to establish boundaries, make decisions, not always easy decisions. If you don't know what you're playing for and why you're here you're not going to protect those areas that matter so much to you. And so that's the first part.

If you think about your best self and when we spoke a little while ago, you had talked about your career and some of the personal sacrifices. I've done the same thing. Putting everything into my job and not into my family or my wellbeing.

Sometimes you've gotta understand where you are at your best. And then what's getting in the way of that? And who's getting your best energy? And most of the time when we do these exercises with leaders, if we do workshops who gets your best energy across the board? It's their work, other things.

Get their best energy. And then we say to them, but who matters to you the most? My daughter, my spouse, my family, my parents. What energy do they get? They get what's ever left at the end of the day and you're exhausted. You're plopping on the couch, maybe having a drink. So this disconnect between what matters if they're able to start with purpose and there's some work to be done around it, but they can get connected to that. They've got this north star and they can create more boundaries. But to the point your client, no one's gonna create those boundaries for her. They're gonna suck the life out of you. They're gonna take as much as they can, because everybody needs help too. So for her, she's gonna have to put the right boundaries, get the right people in place.

But it's gotta have this framework. How do you get there? And if you don't start with foundational with purpose, you're not gonna get there because you're gonna be skimming across the surface. She's gonna be saying yes to everybody probably, and she's gonna be getting it done and delivering, but there's nothing left for her or the people that matter and that can impact her mortality.

That's a, it's a sad, scary thing. And again, her family.

[00:13:47] Mahan Tavakoli: I love the way you put it, Karen, and it requires some downtime, some thinking time, and reflecting on that purpose. One of the challenges that I've seen with some of the executives is that they haven't taken the time to focus on that personal purpose and aligning with that personal purpose, which is really important to be able to keep them balanced.

So as people are doing that, looking to align with that personal purpose. How can they do it in a way that meets their individual needs and stays aligned with the objectives of the organization? Or do those always align?

[00:14:32] Caren Kenney: No, actually you made a really good point. So it should be aligned with a company purpose. So I have a executive that I'm and. He works for a shark tank, a very big company. It's very stressful. He's not a c e o, he's next level, but he may not be able to apply his purpose full on in his work.

But there should be alignment. His work should enable him to live out his purpose. If it prevents it. That's where there's a disconnect. In a great world, your purpose aligns with your company purpose. So for example, if I'm working for a company that's working on a life-saving drug, that's a great purpose for the company.

That's not my personal purpose though, because I'm not gonna be in that role my whole life. if you can live out your personal purpose, what matters to you, and align it with your company purpose, you've got it right. So there's parameters around purpose, and one is it should reflect your personal values.

So it's not your company purpose, it's not the purpose that. Your parents or someone in your family defined that, I have people say my father and mother had this purpose and I'm carrying it on this legacy. No, it should be yours. It should be outside of yourself. It should but not sacrifice yourself.

So your purpose shouldn't be about you. It should be about helping others, but not at your own expense. Value yourself, but not And then what's critical, I think, is it should be clearly defined and measured. I say that because, actually, I'll give you an example. When I first went through training 15 years ago I said my personal purpose is gonna be to be the best mother. I was a single parent of two kids. That was an easy call. I got by Jim Lair, who is the co-founder of the institute saying, so what does that mean? cuz it could mean anything, right? It could mean I do anything for my kids, I pay for them to get in the best schools. I could be saying I'm always on track or I could be saying I'm never on track in my own interpretation.

But if I created a little bit more rigor around it. So I said I want to raise strong, caring and independent daughters. That was important cuz wanted them to, do well through all this, teach them that they could overcome and achieve anything. So they had to deal with a really difficult childhood living with a dad with a mental illness. And so then I could say, I could look at the end of the day and see how he is doing when they got older. They're, 30 and 32 off and moved away. I expanded it to say and create, sustain meaningful connections with them as an adult. So I might just have five minutes on the phone with one of my girls, but I have to make sure on those five minutes I'm laser focused. I'm not doing something else, checking my email, anything. I'm sitting down and I'm there and I'm listening. So point is, at the end of the day, you should be able to say, where did I live into my purpose today?

Great, that's great. And where did I fall short? I was impatient with this person at work or I came home and I was grumpy and didn't give attention to my daughter, whatever it is. But the more you can put metrics around your purpose, leaders are so good at creating metrics around goals and objectives, but do it around your purpose.

So make it this document this north star that you can actually measure against. And then I think the way to get there, cuz people will say, how do I get to it? journaling I find is most effective. Journaling is, I'm sure you've done it I'd love to hear your perspective on it. But there's questions like, who are, what matters most to me?

Getting really. Aligned on that. What impact do I wanna have on others, right? What's the legacy I wanna leave? So thinking about those and why you're here and what you must complete that can get you to your purpose. And I see this with executives too. Like they're trying to get this perfect purpose laid out get something out there, test it, live with it. It's going to change all over time. Your life circumstances will change, but continue to live and grow this breathing thing. It's gonna be really important for keeping you aligned. So long story back to your executive is aligned to what matters to her.

It's gonna be a lot easier for her to say no, to create those boundaries, to delegate whatever it is. But if she's sacrificing herself in the process, which it sounds like she's shortening her life and potentially losing some of the most important things for her.

[00:18:48] Mahan Tavakoli: A lot of people unfortunately, do that. To what you were mentioning with respect to journaling, what I have found is I have more recently started both journaling and spending some time reflecting and meditating. It's one of those things that I always knew would be of value, Karen, but I was always too busy to get started doing it, which is also the case with a lot of the executives that I work with.

They nod and they say, aha, yes, it makes sense. But then. A week, two weeks later, when we have conversations, we're like, no, I really didn't have time to do that. So what I've had to do is force myself to sit down and do the kind of reflection that you're talking about with the journaling to see how aligned I am with my purpose.

And I love the way you described it I've talked to a lot of different authors and I do talk quite a bit about organizational and team purpose, and I think those are important. But what I love about what you have done is you differentiate between that and your individual purpose, which is one of the reasons why a lot of times even people working medical establishments, doctors or nurses, are at times disengaged and unhappy and burned out because the hospital might have a very clear purpose, but they.

Themselves aren't as clear about their purpose and their impact. So it is a practice that I am disciplining myself on and I would encourage everyone to go through because what you're talking about is our individual purpose, and it takes a lot of reflection.

[00:20:33] Caren Kenney: Yeah, that's a great insight. And what have you learned through your journal?

[00:20:39] Mahan Tavakoli: Primarily that I tend to drift off of my purpose a lot

[00:20:44] Caren Kenney: Yeah,

[00:20:44] Mahan Tavakoli: more than

[00:20:44] Caren Kenney: we all do. We all

[00:20:46] Mahan Tavakoli: Yeah. But what I find, Karen, is it's a lot easier to be an observer and give feedback than to be in the game. So the analogy that comes to my mind is that one of my brothers was very good at chess and mini chess champion.

And my two brothers would always play chess with each other. They're eight and 12 years older. I would watch, and my chess never was anywhere as good as theirs, but there are times when I could see moves on the chess board that they couldn't see, even though their playing ability was way above my ability.

So what I find is that what journaling is helping me do is. Try to come off of the chess board and reflect more on the chess board to see some moves that I don't see on an ongoing basis while playing a game.

[00:21:46] Caren Kenney: I love that, man. That's a great analogy. I also loved what you said about you've been taking more time just to sit and reflect, because I know for me, one of the challenges I have is carving out that personal time to just think and reflect and even strategy. We don't take the time to think. And if you have that time, sometimes you. Picking up the phone. You're on social media, you're trying to fill it cuz we're so used to it. But I love how you said you're creating that time and being intentional about it. I think we all need to do a better job of that.

[00:22:19] Mahan Tavakoli: It is really hard for all of us. You mentioned the phone, Karen, and I think about the fact that we try to be very disciplined around the dinner table with the girls not having their phones and my wife and I not having our phones, but it's incredible how weather standing at a grocery line or walking into an elevator or all moments at home and at work where when we have a free moment, the.

Or technology takes it away from us. The part of what you're saying is an intentional focus at a certain period of day. For some people, it's better in the morning for some people at night where we can reflect on our purpose journal on how aligned we are with that. Some of that reflection without the external forces that can pull our attention and become exhausting at the same time.

[00:23:16] Caren Kenney: Yeah, I think nailed it. There's actually research that shows that when you take a break, like in between meetings and you look at, even if it's social media and you look at your phone, it's the same cog. as not taking a break. It doesn't matter if it's something fun or whatever.

So we're so addicted. I get most frustrated when I go to a restaurant now after covid and people being able to go out and people are finally together. And whether it's someone with a spouse or partner or friends or business colleague and looking at their cell phones and it's like, what's wrong with this?

Have such limited time to make these human connections and we don't know how to connect with each other. We don't know how to be alone with ourselves to be present and experience life in each other.

[00:24:02] Mahan Tavakoli: And it SAPs our wellbeing, Karen, there's another c e o that I work with. He is addicted to his email and text partly because he says there are always these fires in the organization that I hear . I have to, respond to he has a hard time sitting in a meeting, without constantly looking. So how do you. Guide leaders to calm their mind and be able to control the chaos, to be able to be present with their team members, to be able to be present at home and professionally for those moments that have the greatest.

[00:24:49] Caren Kenney: I'd say a couple things. One is good hygiene and practices. So tactical things that people can do right away, you have to oscillate, right? We are oscillatory human beings. So you go in, you go hard, you go fast, you do what you need to do, but then you have to take a break. And this isn't the night, the weekend, the vacation.

This is throughout the day. We have to oscillate. So one is your meetings 10 minutes earlier on the hour, five minutes earlier on the half hour, and take your break If you need to quickly check email. If you need to do something, then but in some way you need to disconnect from what you're doing. So you have to disconnect. With regard to your email one, what I usually advise leaders to do is schedule a time to check email. But communicate it. Don't just do it on your own. So if you say to people, I'm gonna check email. At eight 30 in the morning, I'm gonna check it at one in the afternoon or at four in the afternoon. I'm not gonna be looking at it. Then. Now you have to follow through because if you don't, people will not adhere to it. But there's an urgent situation, seriously urgent, that can't wait a couple hours and then text me. But otherwise, so you, this goes back to boundaries in your executive, set the boundaries.

Set the parameters, but stick with it. And I'll tell you a lot of people where this fails as a, I'm going on vacation so I wanna disconnect, but here's my cell phone number and then they respond to emails some people have to, so I mention. My husband's a ceo.

O I work with CEOs. There are times when you have to be available, so say, you know what, to your family too, I need to work from eight 30 to nine 30, and then I'm free the rest of the day. So do what's reasonable for you. But you need to create those boundaries and those moments of doing what you need to do.

But with that executive, he is encouraging it because he is responding to it. Instead of saying, text me unless it's urgent. And by the way, here are the three times I'm checking email. Send a note. But he has to set those because again, no one's going to set the boundaries for us because people, it's human nature, will try to take what they can.

Not because they wanna hurt us, he's probably really good. And so they wanna get as much as they can from you, regardless of the level you're at in an organization, by the way, 

[00:26:56] Mahan Tavakoli: It's interesting that you mentioned that. I think another piece of it that could come into play, Karen, is that we tend to feel even more important when there is constant demand on us and our times. And I worked for a great c e O of deal, Carnegie. He was outstanding and part of the point that he would always make, it was closer to stoic philosophy.

And the fact that he said the cemeteries are filled with indispensable people. So if I ever think I'm indispensable, all I need to do is look at that and. Part of what he was saying is it was his sense of importance that he felt that he couldn't, for a day or two be away without checking messages and that things would fall apart in reality, things would go on and would not fall apart.

So it's good for us to remind ourselves of that whenever we can. There are the potential to put in safety valves if people really need to reach you, but it's more our lack of setting the boundaries and our lack of wanting to keep that structure that then becomes cognitively exhausting and emotionally exhausting, which I am seeing a lot more of

over the past few months, I've sensed a lot more of it in the conversations that I have with executives.

[00:28:23] Caren Kenney: Yeah I, principal, I love your example. I'm gonna I'm gonna use that. That's a great one. but you're right. I think in some ways there's achievement addiction where people, just keep going to get to the top and they sacrifice a lot and don't really know what and why they're really playing for. But I think the other thing is they wanna be needed and. Especially people when they're feeling vulnerable or insecure and you're helping people there's an addiction there too, right? There's a gratification. So as much as it's burning them out, they're getting the short-term momentary enjoyment out of another problem.

And but again, at what cost.

[00:29:04] Mahan Tavakoli: And the other way of thinking about it, Karen, is that I am using Jack Welsh as an example of not the best kind of leadership, partly because GE started suffering post Jack Welsh.

Of great leaders are great leaders. When they are gone, the organization succeeds even better. So this is a great way to think about it, where our team and our organization can do well without us.

It requires tremendous humility and smaller ego, but it can be both healthier for the team and for the leader to think about it this way. Now, you and Jim working together at j and j Human performance Institute worked a lot on character and you wrote a book Leading With Character.

Would love to first know, how do you define character, Karen? Because I think if you ask any of us or any of the listeners or any of the people they interact with, they would. Oh, of course I've highest character I lead with character. So how do you define character and what do the leaders that lead with character do differently?

[00:30:22] Caren Kenney: Character is who you are, who you truly are and especially when no one else is looking. So the people that we are but we tend to put people in buckets of this person is of highest character, a strong character, and this person is not strong in character, but really character is just, a muscle like any other muscle that we can train and we should train all the time.

Because you'll often see a leader who you just held in such high regard, you put 'em on a pedestal and you refer to them as an example of a great leader, and then they make a poor decision. They do something and then all of a sudden they've fallen from grace and their over. And so the bottom line is we're all vulnerable. We all might say or do something that might be out of character, but character is tied to wellbeing and your values, so character in the same way you're journaling and training to your purpose. Character is something you train through journaling and through thinking about the impact that you want to have on other people.

[00:31:16] Mahan Tavakoli: Karen I love this point. And this was for me a revelation in that I am a big advocate for growth mindset. Not there yet. We can develop in everything, but character I had typically seen as closer to binary. The person has high character, has low character, which is actually why when you view the world that way, or when I viewed the world that way, when someone that I perceive as having high character.

Has a flaw or does something wrong, then all of a sudden I change my view that, aha, this person had low character. So it sets up a lot of difficulties with respect to thinking. So one of the things I love is that you say character also like a muscle can be developed and there are challenges that we have with it and we can strengthen it.

And I wanted to really underline that because for me that was a real deep insight because I think in our conversations, including in organizations, not just in the political world, we see people as this person is a high character person. That person is not a high character person, rather than something that can be.

[00:32:29] Caren Kenney: Yeah, I think it's a good point. And you talked about aligning personal and organizational purpose in the same way with character. I'll just give you what I thought was a great example, j and j. Or it was for 12 years would rate you. Our ratings in mid-year and end year were on two things and they were rated equally.

And it's how you get rated from compensation, et cetera. One is the results. So what you achieved, so you hit your numbers, whatever it was that you had to do, you hit it. Okay. That's one number. The other one is the, how that got equal importance. That was very unusual because in some of these cutthroat organizations, including the one of the client that I just mentioned, it's get the numbers, sell the client at all costs.

Like we don't care how it's done. Of course, they don't want you to do anything illegal, but they're not rated for that. So you could get your results but get a low rating on how you treated other people, cuz you end up walking over other people sometimes. Or the way you just treat your colleagues or people that are on your team.

Yes, it can be trained. It's all about awareness. So we need to do it as individuals, as organizations, but having kind of these guiding principles. But you're right, we can't judge people. We judge people on something that they did. I don't think any anyone of us can look in the mirror and say, you know what?

I've never done anything. We justify, we're great at justifying the things. I had to do it, or while other people were doing it, or, I could have lost my job or, my daughter this or that. So we all are very good master storytellers that justifying our behavior. So that's where I say empathy comes in because take a look at yourself first. The admirable thing is if you want to strengthen your character, and that's where you think about, the impact you wanna have. The other thing is, we talked about two types of character. So one is your performance character. That's really important. So being decisive and taking risks, especially in these days, right?

You have to act fast and quickly. And then there's ethical and moral character, and that is, being empathetic and kind and humble. So if you are confident, which is a, performance, character trait very heavy on the confidence and low on the humility, then you have arrogance. So what you wanna do is you wanna balance them.

So being , decisive, oh, we have to make cuts in our company. But doing it with kindness and empathy, the way you handle it, there're people talking about our recent, company on the West coast that's sliced employees in half. You can take whatever side you want there are many cases for saying, you know what, the company grew too fast. It didn't have the money. So it's not that the action is necessarily right or wrong. It's not mine to judge. I don't have all the details, but it is important how you do it. And so that goes back to from a company or individual standpoint, we have to make difficult decisions sometimes and do things.

We don't always make the right choices, but if we try to do it in the best way, where we are thinking about other people and the impact, and that's where the training comes apart. Awareness. And there's a few different exercises that we use to get people to be aware, but anyone can do it. 

[00:35:36] Mahan Tavakoli: What you're saying is that results matter Absolutely. In all kinds of organizations. The how also matters and the how to a great extent goes to that character. The other point you were making, it reminded me of Gina Schaffer, she is one of the regional CEOs that I had a conversation for this podcast 

she started a chain of hardware stores

[00:36:01] Caren Kenney: Yeah.

[00:36:02] Mahan Tavakoli: Gina in their organization, they give opportunity to returning citizens. And one of the points that she made is that none of us want to be judged. The worst thing we have ever done in our lives. So that's part of her view in giving, returning citizens opportunities, and they've done very well with that.

That's a certain level of what you were mentioning in our storytelling. Sometimes we build stories of our character and then the smallest flaw or the smallest challenge with someone else. We build a story around that doesn't serve us or them that well.

[00:36:43] Caren Kenney: that's exactly right. And I loved what you said before, and it's so true about how people think I'm of high character. Our biggest problem is thinking that we are of high character because none of us flawless. None of us doesn't have areas to work on. We're talking about is about awareness and the leaders that recognize that they need to work on themselves because we all. That are vulnerable about it, not only for themselves, but for their employees. And I'm struggling too. We had a C H R O at j and j who said, this is hard for me. Like instead of looking like you have it all together, this is hard for all of us. It's about wanting to be better. And as long as we all want to be better and we work on it and we're going to fail, we're going to make mistakes. We're going to poor decisions and judgment and have days when we don't treat people the way we wish we did. Then we're gonna continue to grow.

We are human beings, but it's those that think that they have it together, that don't care about that personal growth. So you can go to the best schools in the world and get all the degrees you want in training, but unless you care about who you are and the impact that you have on other people, you're not gonna be the type of leader that's going to be long-term sustainable.

And that's going to be that memorable person who made a difference. I don't care what numbers you get, if you took people down in the process, if that's okay with you, that's fine, but most people don't get to their end of lives and are proud of. Yeah I got here, but I took a few people down along the way.

[00:38:20] Mahan Tavakoli: Karen. Let's say the people listening to the conversation say, I buy it I have a growth mindset character can also be developed, so I'm not there yet. So how can I, as a c e o, as an executive, as a team leader, get started, 

how can I get started on developing my character further?

[00:38:47] Caren Kenney: Yeah, it's a good question. One is 360 s are great. Getting feedback from other people. So asking questions about the, how, that's what I loved about what j and j did.

So I did a workshop for a CEO's leadership team, one of the participants said he does a 360 with his wife. So they all laughed at him and they're like, what? And they said, the last thing we wanna do is hear. But he said, you know what, I sit there and I'm rated at work and I he's a couple times a year we just sit down, how are we doing? They do it for each other. And I just thought that was so admirable cuz a lot of times you don't wanna hear it, but if you hear it, so 360 s are an easy, I think, way to go. Other examples are writing your eulogy, like not to be more of a go to your funeral.

What do you want on your tombstone? What do you want people to say? Are they talking about you and your successes or what did they say about you as a person? So write your own eulogy and what you want. And then you say, where's the disconnect? The way I'm living my life right now.

Would this be my eulogy? Another one is just thinking about leaders you admire. Write down the attributes of those leaders. What did you admire and why? Again, it probably wasn't, hitting their numbers. And then what are the attributes you would like to emulate? So this is about finding vulnerability or opportunity. That's where journaling can be really helpful. And then at the end of the day, you. Did I live into this? Where did I fall short? So in the book we have the personal cradle journey that is just about, again, journaling and reflection and deciding what are the kind of set of principles that I wanna use to guide me in the same way that will have a cradle.

It's a code of ethics and operations. It's having that for yourself. And so you can also take character traits that you think of in leaders and force rank them to, which ones are strongest for you and which are weakest. So it really just comes down to awareness. And then how do you train it is you push yourself into the comfort zone there.

So if in patience is a difficult one for you, for example. When you're next on a call with a customer service person, take a breath before you get on. Remember, I am impatient in these situations or with a colleague or someone on your team who might just rub you the wrong way. That oscillation, reset yourself, take some deep breaths, meditate, journal, go into the conversation.

Now you've become more aware you conducted yourself in a way that you feel better, that's training your muscle, you're pushing into that muscle so that's training. Push hard, learn, fail. But those are just some ideas 

[00:41:12] Mahan Tavakoli: they're great ideas. That the first step is the recognition that character is not binary. We don't lack it or have it. We can develop it. And I love what you're mentioning. Awareness is a big part of the process for us to be aware of our own character. Some of it comes from feedback from external sources, other trusted advisors, partners, whether it might be a spouse or might be team in the organization.

And some of it comes from our own personal reflections. When we reflect on our. We know ourselves and we are spending all the time with ourselves so we know who made us snap at them when we shouldn't have. When we responded in a way we shouldn't have. And over a period of time, we can then determine patterns of what are the things that we need to work on and ourselves, because this is also something, as you say, like a muscle that we can continually work on and develop our character.

[00:42:25] Caren Kenney: Yes. Said. 

[00:42:26] Mahan Tavakoli: So Karen, I know the other thing you write about and would love to touch on is imposter syndrome, and I don't know if this is your experience or not. I see a lot more of it in some of the most competent women executives and CEOs that I work with. The men that I work with, even in one-on-one meetings, aren't willing to admit it, but they don't talk about it.

But some of the women question themselves in ways that it's almost, unbelievable because they are highly competent, capable. Now, I do think a little imposter syndrome is good. Keep the ego in check. Some of the executives that I work with need a little bit more of that.

But would love to know your thoughts behind what is the basis for imposter syndrome and how can competent professionals and executives overcome some of their imposter syndrome.

[00:43:27] Caren Kenney: Yeah, it's a good question. I see it more with women. I will say I do see it with men. They do a better job with it. Sometimes men are also just more comfortable pushing out of their comfort zones in certain areas. But women, there's historically being told that you were, good enough for a position or you should go for it. I think also we have exacerbated it with, Especially during the last few years as now there, there are quotas to be met, putting women and women of color, and people of color in roles. Sometimes we're jumpstarting them into roles without their preparation. So I think the preparation in training is key.

Setting them up for success. I also know, I mean there's research around this that often a company will put a woman in role as a C E O because if another leader, a male leader for example, has been pulled out, unexpected leader last minute. But there's just greater scrutiny on the females by the boards, by investors.

So some of it is creating awareness with them. But women tend to , feel imposter syndrome more because they don't tend to wanna move into a role unless they feel really confident around that role. Cuz the feeling of failure is tough. But to your point, a little imposter syndrome's good if a role isn't scary. If it feels too comfortable, you shouldn't be in that role, if it's not hard and scary, I think it's not worth it. But it shouldn't be debilitating, right? It should be a little scary and a little hard. And because then you're challenging yourself we wanna keep pushing.

That's how we grow. We talked about that earlier, but in terms of how they part, a big part of that is private voice. So one is go back to that awareness, be aware and label it. I am, I'm feeling imposter syndrome now I'm feeling one is what evidence do I have? Challenge yourself so I don't feel like I can do this job or I'm good enough.

So one is challenging that voice that's telling you that you're not good enough, cuz women have that a lot. And what evidence do I. Challenge, that voice in the past have I felt this way and I've actually been able to do it. So it's talking back to themselves. Your best coach is, I'm a coach, but your best coach is your inner coach.

If you can train it and what are the facts that I have? So what's the facts and data that say I'm not going to be successful. So it's really creating, we have this old story about ourselves and why we can't be successful. So it's creating a new story, coaching that private voice.

One thing, I have a client who is a male actually, who's struggling with this a lot right now. And I just say what would you say to your son or your best friend? And then he tells me, and it's a completely different thing, and I said, you have to talk to yourself like a friend, like your son. And putting yourself in the coaching role, I think is so important. Another one is definitely connecting to your purpose. connect to your purpose and you have confidence in why you're here and what you're playing for, you're gonna be more confident because what matters most is gonna be at the forefront and you care less.

Okay, if I screw up this meeting or presentation, or I don't make the right decision here, the world's not gonna end. Go back to your example of the cemetery, like it's the world's not gonna be over. I'm going to make mistakes. So part of it is if you can stay connected by that north star on your purpose, you're gonna be more confident. That's one. And managing your energy. We talked about that before, but, If you're sacrificing yourself, you're not getting your sleep, you're not moving throughout the day, you're not getting nutrition, you're not taking care of yourself, are going to make poor decisions. You're not gonna connect as well with people.

You're not gonna be as confident, you're thinking your memory, none of those things. So understand that wellbeing piece is inextricably linked to that performance. And then I would say just get comfortable with being uncomfortable knowing that this is going to be uncomfortable and this is my life.

Part of it is awareness, acceptance, and then having that toolkit though of challenging yourself back. But take a break, take care of yourself cuz you know when you're energized in the morning, when you've had your sleep, when you've got that energy, you're gonna be able to tackle it, feel more confident. 

[00:47:18] Mahan Tavakoli: I love how you mentioned about the executive that you're working with and what he would say to a colleague or to his son. Sometimes the language we have in our head, that inner person who's talking to us, we wouldn't accept that from anyone else.

[00:47:36] Caren Kenney: No,

[00:47:36] Mahan Tavakoli: to us that way.

So it's important for us to work on that. As much as we work on what anyone else says to us.

[00:47:46] Caren Kenney: And this particular client, his parents were really tough on him in school. When you have tough parents and coaches who pushed you and maybe didn't, Coach you the right way. Some people have been sitting with this for many years, so he just wants to make it go away. And it's no, you have to work on this every day.

That little voice has been, 55 years in the making. You now have to work on this every day. And everything we've talked about is this is training, and training is every day. Training is not. You go back to school on this. No training to be a leader is training. To be a high performing human is train. We're gonna fall short, we're gonna fail, we're gonna make poor judgements, and then tomorrow let's go and do it again. And we're gonna slowly get better with repetition and focus 

[00:48:34] Mahan Tavakoli: And you know what, Karen? Some of the nicest emails that I get is typically, Different executives saying that in many instances they felt that they were the only ones going through these things, thinking these things, experiencing these emotions, and to a certain extent it feels good when we realize we are not alone because we are watching other people's.

External surface interactions. In many instances, we don't know some of the conversations that are going on in their heads, some of the challenges they are experiencing. So it's great hearing this example of the executive that you shared because I'm sure a lot of people listening to the conversation can relate to it and can therefore see.

It's a struggle for all of us,

[00:49:29] Caren Kenney: All.

[00:49:30] Mahan Tavakoli: It's not specific to one particular individual or another. 

[00:49:34] Caren Kenney: Yes, and I think that's the best thing, and I love that you're talking about it and you see it in your clients too, because the best thing leaders can do is be vulnerable and share. I struggle too. It means you're a human being and actually it shows a sign of leadership and emotional intelligence and character when you do show a little vulnerability.

[00:49:54] Mahan Tavakoli: It does. We still have a tough time with it. Karen

[00:49:57] Caren Kenney: we all do. We are all works in progress. Completely agree.

[00:50:01] Mahan Tavakoli: So Karen when you are guiding leaders and executives when you want them to develop in their own leadership, whether having to do with overcoming imposter syndrome, improving on their own character, dealing with some of the stress and the burnout that they're facing, in addition to. Journaling and taking some time to reflect.

Are there other leadership practices or resources you typically find yourself recommending?

[00:50:35] Caren Kenney: Definitely the journaling is important. Stakeholder feedback is important and not waiting for that formal structure, talking to people, how am I doing? What can I be doing differently? Telling people what I appreciate about you?

What do you appreciate about me? Set up with a but what do you need more of from me? What do you need less of from me? But part of it is really just the conversation with others being vulnerable. It's about awareness and intention. So awareness is key and there are multiple ways we can get that, that we just talked about.

And intention means I want to get better and identifying areas where I have opportunity. And then the strategies they're great books out there and programs. But getting connected to what matters most to you, I think is important first. And then building strategies in a toolkit that you can continually tap into is,

[00:51:25] Mahan Tavakoli: I love that and I read a ton of books, at least right now, over a hundred a year, and I love books and podcasts. That said, I love what you mentioned, which doesn't come from. Books and podcasts, except this one, everyone should continue listening to this. One is awareness and intention, and that doesn't come from reading someone else's work,

And it doesn't necessarily come from listening to someone else talk. It comes from our thinking and our taking time and journaling and reflecting. And I think that is an outstanding perspective as the listeners look to whether it is work on their leadership, their own character, and overcome the imposter syndrome and continue to making a difference toward their individual purpose.

So Karen, how can the audience find out more about you and connect with.

[00:52:26] Caren Kenney: Would love to connect with them. I can be reached on LinkedIn. It's Karen with a c a r e n k e n e y and LinkedIn or Evolve leadership e v o l v e leadership.com. Reach out to me through the website or LinkedIn's usually best.

[00:52:42] Mahan Tavakoli: I really appreciate the conversation, Karen, your own authenticity and again, the fact that the awareness and the intention can make all the difference as we work on aligning with our purpose, and that's most important before we can have an impact on others and the organization. Thank you so much for joining me in this conversation, Karen.

Kenny.

[00:53:08] Caren Kenney: Thank you Mahan, for having me. This has been great. I've really enjoyed it.