448 Leaders Are Human Too: How to Talk About Mental Health Without Undermining Your Authority with Melissa Doman

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[00:00:00] 

Mahan Tavakoli: Mel Doman, welcome to Partnering Leadership. I am thrilled to have you in this conversation with me

Melissa Doman: Thank you so much. I've really been looking forward to this.

Mahan Tavakoli: and wait to talk about your book, cornered Office, why we need to talk about leadership mental health. Couldn't agree with you more, Mel, but before we get to that, we'd love to know a little bit more about you. Whereabouts did you grow up, and how did your upbringing help contribute to who you've become?

Melissa Doman: I really appreciate that question. So I was born and raised in Rockville, Maryland, about 25 minutes northwest of DC And it was a really interesting place to grow up because the DC area is such a melting pot. I was exposed to so many different cultures, different types of food we have. We had the Smithsonian, and one of the most amazing museums, free museums that you can go to in the world.

And being on the east coast I was, always exposed [00:01:00] to a traveling to different places, which was really nice. And I really appreciate. That upbringing because I had access to so many different kinds of people and viewpoints and experiences, and I appreciated that because in, in certain places, it can be very easy to get into that kind of group think where you're around very similar people, very similar ideas, and the world can feel very small.

And so growing up outside of DC the world always felt very big to me. And I'm only second generation American, so that's why I felt even bigger is our roots are over in Europe. And I think that the way that influenced me, especially now at the ripe old age of 40, is to be infinitely curious.

About meeting new people, hearing their stories, and going to new places that are different from my own, I've always been that, but why child who turned into the but why person? [00:02:00] And, shocking no one. And I have a insatiable thirst for travel and seeing new places and meeting new people, and I will always be that way.

And while I think part of that is baked into my personality, I also think part of that was where I grew up and how my family raised me,

Mahan Tavakoli: That's a beautiful way to build on the heritage and the curiosity that you've maintained. Now over the years, you've also become more interested in mental health. What got you into this, Mel?

Melissa Doman: I have always been an empathetic person, a caring person, wanting to support people. I've been that way since I was a kid, so that, that's very innate in me. But as I got older. What actually sparked my interest in mental health was when I was living in South Korea as an English teacher.

I was so young, I was [00:03:00] 23 at the time, and I was meeting all these people who were in these very transitional periods of their lives, myself included. And I noticed that everybody was struggling with something and a lot of them were going abroad and teaching to try to get perspective. And while I loved living abroad and teaching these great kids, what I also loved is meeting these people and learning their stories and being there for them.

So when I finished that experience, I came back to the US and got my master's degree in counseling psychology. And it was such a right fit that so many people in my life were like, oh my God, it took you this long to, to pursue that degree. And I was like, I'm sorry I missed the memo. And you got it before I did.

And so I did clinical practice for a number of years, but then what I noticed was that I was treating clients in a broken system and a broken narrative, and that didn't feel like it was moving the needle. So I thought, let me transition [00:04:00] into mental health in the workplace. Let me try and make an impact at the source.

And that has been even more of a right fit. And I think also on a personal level, as someone, despite my job title, I struggle with mental health just like anyone else. I'm the same species and I think there's a selfish part of me that wants to create conversations around mental health in general and at work that I didn't have access to growing up in the eighties and nineties and early aughts.

I think those are the biggest reasons.

Mahan Tavakoli: One of the things that you mentioned, Mel, which you also address in your book, the broken. System and broken thinking we've had When it comes to mental health in the workplace, do you see as the origins of that?

Melissa Doman: Oh my God, how is it not broken? So in my first book, which is a very vague title, yes, you can talk about [00:05:00] mental health at work. Here's why and how to do it really well. You have no idea what you'll get with it. I did quite the in depth chronology of not just, and because the second book is really about the broken narrative around leadership mental health.

But the first book is how we arrive at this broken narrative about mental health and mental illness in general. It's because if we go back to the basics, human beings usually tend to be. Skeptical and disliking of the unfamiliar and behaviors they don't understand, or behaviors that feel shocking or unusual.

So throughout history, because the brain, which is just an organ like any other organ in the body, but it is the organ that governs how we think, how we ha, how we act, how we feel, how we relate to the environment around us. So when the brain does [00:06:00] things that are considered to be outside the norm, people don't tend to react with empathy and curiosity.

They tend to react with rejection and fear. So throughout history, anybody who has been behaviorally quote, not normal, those people have been marginalized, they've been labeled, they've been sequestered, they've been tortured, they've been treated as second class citizens, and in many ways. Still are, depending on the circles you run in.

So history and humanity has taught us to be afraid of differences in mental health and mental illness, which really just is, it's human nature, but we have the blessing and the curse of self-awareness and critical thinking, and now we know better. We do know better. So we have to do better, and we bring those biases into the workplace.

[00:07:00] Last time I checked, it's one brain and one body that does life and work. So the conditioning from history and also our family of origin, country of origin, culture of origin, gender identity. If you're religious, different social circles, you run in all of these things. I and condition us about how we should think and feel about mental health and mental illness and whether or not we can even talk about that.

Mahan Tavakoli: And now add to that what you focus your recent book on, which is the narrative that has gone along with leadership. Mel, as I was reading your book, I was reflecting on my dad, who was a wonderful leader. However, if you had asked him, he would've told you. You never show your emotions to your team. You never let people see you sweating or what you're feeling. So [00:08:00] he would have said all the things that you say as maybe

Melissa Doman: She's nuts.

Mahan Tavakoli: leadership.

Melissa Doman: She's nuts. Don't believe her

Mahan Tavakoli: what she's talking about.

Melissa Doman: a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Your father. Is a product of the time and space in which he came up in the space time continuum. He's a product of his generation, of his culture, of his family. I completely understand why he feels that way because everything taught him to feel that way.

So there's no way I'm gonna sit here and say, no, he's wrong. Nope. He was told that's what you have to do to survive. And so you're not doubted. And so the narrative, again, going back to us pesky humans, this is also very innate in us, that if you go back, I'm talking way, way back to our ancestors, like beginning of civilization [00:09:00] sort of stuff.

And even beyond that, if you go back to primates, and things like that, pre homo sapien days. Humans look to other humans that display consistency, strength, direction, clarity, because it makes us feel protected. We look to those people to protect us from negative stimuli and our environment, to give us guidance, to tell us what to do.

We are naturally social creatures who seek protection. It is in our blood, it's in our bones, it's in our history. The problem is that over millennia, this innate drive, we have to treat leaders as if they are. Not the same species as us, as if they don't struggle with the same things as if they're not exposed to the same stimuli is just absurd.

It's absolutely absurd where we create, if you let my teeny tiny nihilist come out for a minute, [00:10:00] we create all these industries, all these services, all these products, all these things that keep us busy between birth and death, that are all human created. And we create these titles of which leaders take based on the sociological assignment of power, and we raise them up to be something that's completely human created and then we criticize them for when they don't fulfill those expectations.

Is no one else seeing this. Am I the only one who's stripping away? And I'm like. I don't I'm missing this memo like I'm, am I alone in my principles? And so that, that's really what it is the power of storytelling through millennia about what leaders are supposed to be, how they're supposed to act, what it means if they deviate from that, because history has taught them that is the way, but based on, on, let alone modern day [00:11:00] life, how are they supposed to do that?

I don't know. And but again, your dad, it's not wrong. I completely understand. And even now, it's still not safe for leaders to deviate from that narrative because it doesn't matter that the narrative is changing. What I am sharing is not the dominant narrative out there. It is the narrative that we're trying to normalize, which means people are ready to attack it and disprove it, and I dare them to.

With my logic, I dare them to, I go, tell me where I'm wrong.

Mahan Tavakoli: That's the challenge, Mel. I can see vast majority of the listeners nodding along and smiling as you're speaking, relating to what you're saying. And deal with so many CEOs and executive clients where they would express things the way you just did. the unfairness of the [00:12:00] pressure

Melissa Doman: It is unfair.

Mahan Tavakoli: that are laid on that leadership

Part because of the narrative that we've held onto.

My dad's generation was different, but in many instances we are still holding onto those

Melissa Doman: a hundred percent. So it's not a simple fix, which I regret to say. So I make it very clear in the book that how people choose to go about shifting this narrative has to be deeply personal, and it must be based on their individual circumstance. Not every company will be open to this idea. Not every team will be open to this idea.

Not every industry will be open to this idea. And so the person has to look at their surroundings and say, is it actually safe for me to try to change this [00:13:00] narrative, to have this conversation? Because if this company I work in, if this leadership team I'm in has very clearly told me that talking about this will mean bye-bye job.

Listen to them. They are telling you what the norms are, what the expectations are. You are not going to change that. And this doesn't mean I'm encouraging you to give up. It doesn't mean I'm encouraging you to skulk away. It means I'm encouraging you to go to proverbial greener leadership pastors where you can have this conversation if you're financially able to switch jobs, if it's good for your career.

All of these sorts of individual circumstances where ideally you want to demonstrate that having very human struggles as a leader does coexist with leadership, functioning and success. But the thing is that people don't know they coexist unless you talk about it. Now, I'm not saying. Talk about a [00:14:00] 25 year mental illness history in an 18 page email.

That's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is to slow, drip and feed the normalization of leadership struggle concurrent with success in everyday conversations. Mahan, lemme take you for example. Can I pick on you for a minute? Is that okay?

Mahan Tavakoli: can

Melissa Doman: Yeah. Okay. All right. So let's say that you and I are leadership colleagues at a company, and let's say that mental health is starting to get, slowly normalized for team members at our organization.

But there hasn't been any warning sign to us as leaders that it's unsafe for us to have this conversation. So let's say we're having a leadership meeting and maybe both of our bosses are there too. Let's say we're middle managers and I'm talking about a really huge. Project that I have to get done and people know how hard it's been.

It could be something as [00:15:00] simple as, I'm so happy this is done. It's been really like messing up my sleep and my anxiety has been flaring up, but I'm so happy with how this turned out. Just something small because people see how well I've done, but they also know the impact it's had on me. So then if they go, why are you talking about the anxiety?

Or let's say hypothetically you, which you would never obviously say, why are you talking about the anxiety? And I go, I completed the project and I don't see anything wrong with explaining how hard it was on me. 'cause it didn't affect the outcome. Then it gets fun and awkward. So what I tend to encourage people to do is do irrefutable logic.

Irrefutable in environments that are hopefully psychologically safe enough to receive that and not all environments are. So you, again, that [00:16:00] formula is you have to show that human struggle exists concurrently with functioning and success. And if you want to be even higher functioning and have more success, a emotionally intelligent responsible leader will vocalize their concerns to ask for help to get the support they need to perform better.

Isn't that what companies want? So again, this takes a bolder approach, but that's why I always encourage like drip feeding in little moments so it doesn't shock people. Because when you're trying to shift a narrative, you need to give people time to catch up.

Mahan Tavakoli: I love that from so many different perspectives, Mel. First of all, the credibility that comes from the fact that you acknowledge this will not work in every situation and. The organization. do have to reflect on the environment that we are in. [00:17:00] sometimes people over rationalize

Unwillingness to try new things.

Also need to challenge ourselves with that. However, what you're saying is you do have to reflect on yourself, the environment you are in, what leadership acknowledges, accepts, doesn't.

I love the way you framed it in that. If you were to communicate that way in a team meeting, at least from my perspective, I would connect better to your humanity.

I felt

Melissa Doman: Yeah.

Mahan Tavakoli: connection to you

so I

find Of value in the way you framed both the reality that you have to think about with respect to your team and organization, and also how to approach it.

Melissa Doman: Thank you. I really appreciate that because I get very wary of anybody who says, oh, this works in every scenario and every this, and I go, nuh there's 8 billion people on the planet. Nuh. And so it, and that's the thing, I also wrote about this in my first book not every [00:18:00] place is safe to have these conversations.

And sometimes people do the wrong thing and they hold it against you. And that's why you gotta know your legal protections. And you have to take this based on your individual circumstance and the, one of the. I'm so bad, whether it's a metaphor and analogy, you would never guess. I wrote a book when I talk about, we're not encouraging to people to have an ironclad door and let nothing through.

We're also not encouraging an open playing field. I'm encouraging people to build a fence to decide what they let through and what they keep out, and not just sharing for the sake of sharing. If you're gonna talk about mental health as a leader, you have to take power. You have to take power dynamics into account.

You have to take the sociological assignment of power into account and how people view you. And if you're going to disclose these things, whether it's to other leaders, whether it's to team members, you have to be really clear about why you're saying it, what you want [00:19:00] them to do with the information, what you are prepared to do with managing your mental health as a leader.

Because you can't just talk about the struggle and not what you're doing about it. There's a lot of things you have to take into account, so it's really about intentionally sharing because people will fill in the blanks about why you're doing things unless you're explicitly clear why you're sharing.

Mahan Tavakoli: I imagine this also takes some reflection on our part in trying to understand some of these stressors, some of the mental health toll that this is taking on us. So it first takes self-reflection before we can do an effective job of what we want to fence in and what we wanna share.

Melissa Doman: Oh, yeah. I always advise people, if you're going to start having new conversations, sharing new things, you need to have a conversation with yourself first before you [00:20:00] do that, because it can feel like a very ambiguous, amorphous, scary, unfamiliar. Conversation to have. So I say give it some structure, give it some legs.

If you're gonna do something like this, be very clear about what you're trying to achieve. If you can achieve it in this environment, who you want to talk to, why, make it, give it a structure so you're not just having the words tumble out of your mouth from your brain. Because there's so many different things to manage with these social relationships at work and the image of being a leader.

Yes, there's more pressure on you as you're sharing from a leadership position that's not lost on me, but it doesn't make the approach any less important.

Mahan Tavakoli: You talked about leaders as human sponges absorbing team stress, and I see this all the time.

Why is that, in your view, unsustainable [00:21:00] isn't that to a certain extent, the manager or leader's responsibility, where they play a role in being able to absorb some of the stress from their team?

Melissa Doman: The key word there is some big key word is some. There is a difference between sometimes absorbing or shielding a team from some of those effects so they can get their work done and so they can focus on what they need to focus on. This is a yes, and however, and this is a big, however, there are too many scenarios where leaders have been expected to morph into all, almost like team caretakers.

That's just a big [00:22:00] freaking no, it's a big no. I have had countless leaders literally cry to me in group sessions, one-on-one coaching where they say I just can't take it anymore. Like I'm expected to hold all of it. I'm never allowed to talk about what it's like for me. I feel like everything I do is never enough, and it's because it's the truth where people expect that those with leadership titles are these endless wells of empathy and performance and capability when they have limitations just like everybody else.

I was doing a session with a leadership group where this person said to me, and I will never forget, they said, I feel like I don't have access to telling people. I'm human. I feel like I don't have access to explaining, I have human ways of struggling. And that really struck me because it's true.[00:23:00] 

They're completely dehumanized. And so it is not sustainable. And the problem is as well, that a lot of people they pro not to get too analytical, but they project onto leaders. This like workplace mommy and daddy vibe. Oh, they'll protect me or they always know better or they should do it. They're in charge.

I'm sorry, are you not all chronologically aged adults? Please. Am I missing that? And so I'm not saying a 22-year-old newbie into a company should be holding the same amount of stress as someone 20 years their senior. Of course I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is that there is a reminder of.

Personal accountability of emotional self-management to each team member. And that is not the total responsibility of the leader. And I it drives me nuts when people are like, oh, they're responsible. I go, I'm [00:24:00] sorry. No, they're not. You are responsible for your own emotional identification, your own emotional self-management, and explaining what you need.

Provided a leader has made you feel safe to, to have that conversation. But it is totally unsustainable and leaders are flipping out. They can't take it, especially now when they're also responsible for taking a look at team mental health.

Mahan Tavakoli: Yeah, and I see it as a call for empathy, Mel, for also our leaders in that, in many organizations, many times want to vent freely to their leaders, but there is not the reciprocity where the leaders can vent freely.

Melissa Doman: I advocate for a two-way support structure. I think there's nothing wrong with that. Yes, it can be a bit, it can feel a bit odd to support your boss, but also [00:25:00] why not? Seriously? Why not? And I realize I'm breaking a lot of perceptions here, and I'm breaking a lot of proverbial rules. I just don't care.

I'm like, why? It's all why. And so I, I realize you're not supposed to do that, but. Why not? And so I think that normalizing that two-way support structure is really important. And I can understand it, it pro it presents the feeling of risk of muddying the waters or changing the power dynamics, but it really doesn't have to, it can be just simple things like, let's say a leader is having trouble with kids at home, or let's say they're going through a health issue, or let's say they struggle with an anxiety disorder, like whatever it is, it could be as simple as the team member saying to the leader, Hey, you seem stressed out today.

Is everything okay? Or, I hope, you're always there for me. Like [00:26:00] I'm always happy to listen. It could be just really simple small things. We're not trying to get people to give therapy to each other. So I and what drives me nuts is that all of this mental health data. Where leaders' mental health is measured in the data, and then the recommendations in the data are solely of how the managers can support the teams and no mention of how to support the leaders.

And I go I must be crazy because I'm seeing that this is a bit incomplete. So I just, I feel, I'm like, I'm smiling for anybody listening to the episode, I'm smiling so big. I'm like, I know I'm being logical here and just making people uncomfortable.

Mahan Tavakoli: You also mention and bring up, some of the misunderstandings of stoicism

Melissa Doman: thing is, I will say very clearly, there is a time and place for stoicism in [00:27:00] leadership, just like there is a time and place for stoicism as an individual contributor. There are good times and places to show emotional consistency as a leader, that is part of the gig.

However, where the mistake has occurred is where that is always the expectation. That is literally the antithesis of what it is to be human, seriously. So it has to be a sometimes thing that is contextually and situationally dependent, as opposed to an always thing, which is just not real. we are complex. We have depth, we are influenced in so many different ways. And not to mention leadership stoicism it's a double-edged sword because there are lots of people who criticize leaders for acting constantly stoic and then become fearful when they're not.

[00:28:00] So it's a really tough double-edged sword and I'm aware of the irony. So there you have to explain the context of the changes, because if leaders start making these changes. And they don't explain their intention of why they're making the changes. It changes the ecosystem in ways that the other organisms are not ready for.

I'm a big fan of statement of intention for that reason, because if I'm changing my behavior and haven't explained that to anybody as to why it is on me to explain,

Mahan Tavakoli: Now in what ways can managers and leaders do a better job recognizing their impact on the mental health of their team members?

Melissa Doman: That is an extraordinarily important question and a common adage I always say, and will never give up, is we don't choose to struggle with our mental health. We [00:29:00] choose what to do about it, provided we have access to resources and can't afford to use them. So when leaders are struggling with their mental health, regardless of the source, they have no right to take it out on their team.

They have no right. They have no right to take it out on anybody, because when a leader who's emotionally struggling takes it out on people they have control over, talk about destroying trust. Psychological safety, employee experience, it's all gone. Because when you do that to people who you have influence over, whether or not they have a job, talk, talk about hopefully unintentional abuse of power.

That is a big no. So if a leader is struggling with their mental health, again, very contextually dependent, situationally dependent, it is your responsibility to tell people you're struggling [00:30:00] and what you're doing about it. So they don't personalize it. And so they know how to best communicate with you.

So let's say that you struggling for a reason. You don't want to share great news. You don't have to. All you need to do is let them know if you seem different you're having a tough time. It has nothing to do with them. You're doing what you need to do to manage it. But if you're coming off as short to them, whatever, it's not your intention to let if you're coming off a certain way, granted, you can't control every single moment. You can't be everything to everybody. But it is your responsibility to tell people if you're struggling and what you're doing about it, because how the hell are they gonna know otherwise and not feel under threat from that?

Decide how much you wanna explain. You don't have to give every detail, but it's okay also to say to them, Hey guys, I'm really, I'm feeling really high strung recently. I'm gonna try not to take it out on you. It would be [00:31:00] really helpful for me if you could please a, B, c. Reasonable things you can request.

Please, if you're gonna ask me a whole bunch of requests, can you organize it this way to make it easier for me to get to it would be helpful for me if you guys can self solution A, B, and C. I'd really like this to feel like a team effort, whatever. It needs to be based on the situation, but the responsibility lies on you to say that you're struggling, what you're doing about it, and reasonably what you need from the team so you can effectively manage yourself so they don't have to manage you.

Oh,

Mahan Tavakoli: , That clarity of communication, Mel, I find would add so much value. A lot of times we interpret people's physicality, tonality, and in many instances I find leaders underestimate how people watch [00:32:00] the most minute things that they do.

and

I've seen so many different examples where. The leader might have done something unintentionally. They might have had a bad day at home

 Then people interpreted in all kinds of ways, and all kinds

Melissa Doman: Oh yeah.

Correct. We are pattern creating beings. We want to have reasons why things happen. So instead of people making assumptions, provide it granted based on, what you wanna disclose. But that I, I think when people act out, that is different in a way from their baseline. It is their responsibility to inform people as to why.

That is how I feel regardless of title, tenure, or industry.

Mahan Tavakoli: That is absolutely critical. Now, one of the other things I wanted to get your thoughts on, Mel, that sometimes leaders struggle with [00:33:00] how do you balance accountability with mental health . do you balance the two?

Melissa Doman: That is a very tough question and unfortunately there is no binary correct answer, and this is also another reason about why I partnered with an employment attorney. To have these tougher discussions sometimes because when we start getting into mental health and performance and we start getting into, key elements of a job not being fulfilled, it can get very sticky, very gray, very fast.

So when it comes to these sorts of things, it is very much a gradient. Now, the reason that I co-created this program with this employment attorney is to help people understand, when we're not just talking about mental health at work, we can also be talking about mental illness at work [00:34:00] and when certain things like accommodations come into play, how much of this is the person's mental health?

That is impacting their performance versus their ability to do the job. Is there support that's needed? Is there conscious choice of not doing these key essential functions of the job? What are the different factors? What's going on? And so the convoluted answer is it really depends on the scenario, and that's why I always encourage people, regardless of the country you live in, and sometimes even the state or the province, no mental health law, you have to know about protected disabilities at work.

Mental health disabilities, cognitive disabilities, and really the relationship between mental health and performance and support and performance, and knowing how to separate. [00:35:00] Mental health struggles from the ability to do the job. And this is again, not to be repetitive. Why I partnered with this employment attorney is that not knowing is not a reason not to implement it properly at work.

So she and I have this like half day intensive where we teach leaders, we teach HR managers the relationship between mental health and performance and how to be able to approach each situation with nuance. Because there's too many situations that go very wrong, very fast when they don't have to, where in certain cases the person just needs an accommodation at work so they can perform the key essential functions of the job.

There are other cases where sadly, because of their individual circumstance they actually can't perform the key essential functions of the job. And then that becomes a very different. Unfortunate, [00:36:00] uncomfortable conversation, but having the knowledge to be able to triage the situation is a key part of leadership development that, in my opinion, should be trained in every company.

So I'm trying to do my part by at least educating folks on that in the United States, based on US law.

Mahan Tavakoli: Now I would love to know from your perspective, what would you say is a leadership habit or a couple of non-negotiable habits you would recommend for listeners, for leaders, in order for them to get started on prioritizing their mental health?

Melissa Doman: So there's a concept that I created and I like talking about it, not because it's mine, but because people tell me it's helpful. So a number of years ago, I trademarked a concept called the mental wellbeing non-negotiables, which fits in very nicely with your question. So I feel that managing [00:37:00] mental health is just as important as sleeping, eating, bathing, and breathing, especially in leadership.

So the problem is that when we get so busy, and especially as leaders. One of the first things to fall off the list, the proverbial to-do list is making ourselves feel good. We, yes, we focus on eating right, maybe exercise, fun activities, stuff like that. But it's not very often where people will do that one thing that just really brings them joy and they do it consistently.

Barring cases of hell, high water, death, or dismemberment or illness. Now and those are the ca you know, you gotta have some cases where you can't obviously. So I find that most people don't have even just one. And in leadership. You have to have just something for your mental health that doesn't have to do with like general physical health maintenance or your job, or your [00:38:00] family or your mortgage or whatever it is, that it doesn't matter what it is.

It doesn't matter if you don't like meditation, don't do meditation. Don't like yoga. Don't do yoga. My mental wellbeing, non-negotiables are I have to be in nature at least once a week. Pretty easy to do because I live in Colorado, I play with my dog every single night, even though she doesn't want to sometimes.

'cause she's basically like a wild bingo and salsa dancing. Salsa dancing is something I've been doing for 20 years and it's my meditation. When I go dance, I go twice a month unless I'm severely ill, I'm dead or something else where I literally can't do it. And during the pandemic, I thought, not exactly social distancing friendly. So I have hardwood floors, a mostly willing husband and salsa music. And that will have to do, and it did. So I don't care if it is going to vinyl shops twice a month and [00:39:00] go looking through vinyls or you wanna do coloring books with your kids on Sundays on the living room floor, or you want to buy, a 1920s flapper costume off Amazon and dance around to the Great Gadsby soundtrack.

I don't care what it is. You have to have at least one thing that you do at a cadence that you decide and you stick to it because how are you supposed to survive without that? And it's so easy to get disconnected from our hobbies and things that bring us joy. Just because we're busy with life and adulting and leading you, you cannot sacrifice that.

Something else I would say as another non-negotiable is a reference to what I was talking about earlier where it's really helpful to just start humanizing yourself to your team so they don't expect you to act devoid of humanity. So these are really small things you don't have to [00:40:00] disclose if you have a diagnosed mental illness.

You don't have to disclose if you have a learning disability, whatever it is. You don't have to disclose those things. However, I highly encourage you to disclose the full access and level of emotions and experiences that you have access to. Just like anybody else, look up the feeling wheel from Dr.

Gloria Wilcox, W-I-L-L-C-O-X, and you'll notice that you my friend. Like any other human, straight out of the box, have access to all these other emotions, many of which are negative, to tell yourself and other people what's going on in your environment and if you need access to support or something is wrong.

So start normalizing that you are human, that you have other emotions, and most importantly what you're doing to manage the impact on you. So you have something to do on the front end and something to do on the back [00:41:00] end.

Mahan Tavakoli: I love both of your recommendations. One, Mel, is that we have to prioritize it schedule it and stick to it, and it's not same for everyone. As you

Melissa Doman: No.

Mahan Tavakoli: meditate. Might be wonderful, but I might not be into meditation. It's okay. Whatever I am into is prioritizing it for myself and the second one, enabling others to access my humanity as a leader

To the level that it makes sense.

I think that enables connection, that is a beautiful part of leadership and a beautiful part of what I believe it will take for us to lead through this transformation and AI era we are going through, because we are going to be surrounded with a lot more intelligent machines, AI collaboration, [00:42:00] AI agents, as a human leader to be able to stand apart, we need to be able to access our humanity and enable others to connect our humanity, which is why I so appreciated your book Mill. How can the audience find out more about your book, follow your writing and your work?

Melissa Doman: I really appreciate that. I'm so happy you like it. And so the best way to get in touch with me is@melissadoman.com or to add me on LinkedIn on Instagram. I'm at the wandering Mel and the best place to find my book Cornered Office. Why we need to talk about leadership mental health is online across all major retailers, and it will be in bookstores as well.

My hope is that it becomes. So popular that it starts getting translated into other languages.

Mahan Tavakoli: I so appreciate you, Mel, your book Cornered Office, why we need to talk about leadership, [00:43:00] mental health, and the beautiful examples you gave with your humanity and authenticity, making the conversation such a joy. Thank you so much, Mel Doman.

Melissa Doman: Thank you so much for having me. It was really great.